Why TSA security and the no fly list do not work

[mapes]

A really good article pointing out the serious flaws in the current model for airport security. Also tells you how to get around the No-Fly list.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200811/airport-security

Heres how to by pass the no fly list

The ID triangle: before a passenger boards a commercial flight, he interacts with his airline or the government three times?when he purchases his ticket; when he passes through airport security; and finally at the gate, when he presents his boarding pass to an airline agent. It is at the first point of contact, when the ticket is purchased, that a passenger?s name is checked against the government?s no-fly list. It is not checked again, and for this reason, Schnei*er argued, the process is merely another form of security theater.

?The goal is to make sure that this ID triangle represents one person,? he explained. ?Here?s how you get around it. Let?s assume you?re a terrorist and you believe your name is on the watch list.? It?s easy for a terrorist to check whether the government has cottoned on to his existence, Schnei*er said; he simply has to submit his name online to the new, privately run CLEAR program, which is meant to fast-pass approved travelers through security. If the terrorist is rejected, then he knows he?s on the watch list.

To slip through the only check against the no-fly list, the terrorist uses a stolen credit card to buy a ticket under a fake name. ?Then you print a fake boarding pass with your real name on it and go to the airport. You give your real ID, and the fake boarding pass with your real name on it, to security. They?re checking the documents against each other. They?re not checking your name against the no-fly list?that was done on the airline?s computers. Once you?re through security, you rip up the fake boarding pass, and use the real boarding pass that has the name from the stolen credit card. Then you board the plane, because they?re not checking your name against your ID at boarding.?

All of that money that the TSA is getting should go to the NSA or the CIA....

This is also a good snippet

We took our shoes off and placed our laptops in bins. Schnei*er took from his bag a 12-ounce container labeled ?saline solution.?

?It?s allowed,? he said. Medical supplies, such as saline solution for contact-lens cleaning, don?t fall under the TSA?s three-ounce rule.

?What?s allowed?? I asked. ?Saline solution, or bottles labeled saline solution??

?Bottles labeled saline solution. They won?t check what?s in it, trust me.?

They did not check. As we gathered our belongings, Schnei*er held up the bottle and said to the nearest security officer, ?This is okay, right?? ?Yep,? the officer said. ?Just have to put it in the tray.?

?Maybe if you lit it on fire, he?d pay attention,? I said, risking arrest for making a joke at airport security. (Later, Schnei*er would carry two bottles labeled saline solution?24 ounces in total?through security. An officer asked him why he needed two bottles. ?Two eyes,? he said. He was allowed to keep the bottles.)

[Hammy]

Your identity is fact checked until you get on the plane.

Next time you are at the podium look around- there are cameras that are sometimes positioned to "peek" the agents shoulder and grab your identity from the card.

At random, they will follow you until you get on the airplane via the network of camera's- no different than what happens at a casino.

There are a ton of things going on in an airport- such as the cattle call review, whereby they will create a large crowd and stress people to watch them via the camera's I spoke of above.

I believe that there is a way to fake it, I believe the process described, but I also believe in the fact that despite the best security circumstances, people also broke out of Alcatraz, and in the Supermax Prison people still make weapons or get a hold of contraband.

Security is a limiting factor, not an end game.

[mapes]

You should read the rest of the article if you believe that the airports are secure.

Heres a good snippet that proves the cameras don't catch anything

As I stood in the bathroom, ripping up boarding passes, waiting for the social network of male bathroom users to report my suspicious behavior, I decided to make myself as nervous as possible. I would try to pass through security with no ID, a fake boarding pass, and an Osama bin Laden T-shirt under my coat. I splashed water on my face to mimic sweat, put on a coat (it was a summer day), hid my driver’s license, and approached security with a bogus boarding pass that Schnei*er had made for me. I told the document checker at security that I had lost my identification but was hoping I would still be able to make my flight. He said I’d have to speak to a supervisor. The supervisor arrived; he looked smart, unfortunately. I was starting to get genuinely nervous, which I hoped would generate incriminating micro-expressions. “I can’t find my driver’s license,” I said. I showed him my fake boarding pass. “I need to get to Washington quickly,” I added. He asked me if I had any other identification. I showed him a credit card with my name on it, a library card, and a health-insurance card. “Nothing else?” he asked.“No,” I said.
“You should really travel with a second picture ID, you know.”
“Yes, sir,” I said.
“All right, you can go,” he said, pointing me to the X-ray line. “But let this be a lesson for you.”

Trust me I know security is not the end game. However security is a trade off. We are trading off convenience hopefully for security. In the case of what the TSA policy and practices are now we are spending money and trading off convenience for nothing.


How casinos deal with security is different. Yes everywhere is under CCTV. However they have people watching the tables and thats where they focus.

Rather than wasting money as we are doing now I would rather see something that works.

[mapes]

Actually one other point. The no fly list obviously doesn't work. It only catches people who have similar names to terrorists. Hell some dude in Canada changed his name to be able to fly with out the hassle and it worked. He's not hassled anymore.


I would love to see the false positive vs the positive ratio for the no fly list.

[Hammy]

I hate to mix topics, but it was a majority Democrat vote that killed the national ID card after 9/11.

That would be very helpful in managing a true No-Fly system.
I also never said that Flying was safe. I never said driving my car was either. Or leaving my house for that matter.....

Not being insulting here, but what exactly is the point here?
It's not clear if we are just pointing out flaws or pointing out risks.

There is risk in everything, and a flaw is usually as prevalent as any security measure. Example- no matter how hard automakers work, no car made will ever be 100% flawless. It is a fact, one that I learned from the company that is supposedly one of the most respected in terms of defects per production unit: Toyota.

One has to look no further than the computer they are using to read my opinion to realize that despite every measure concievable, the human genetics of survival includes unsurpassed adaptability that is so cunning- it is often compared to a virus. People will adapt and overcome every measure you place, unless you confine their movement in such a way that it is nothing more than a police state.

I applaud the effort of the TSA and the Homeland Security people. Despite this article, I dont want the level of security that could be proposed- it leads to additional travel time, additional costs to the government, and an additional layer of government oversight that is truly without a Return On Investment that could justify the Total Cost of Ownership in this level of security.

In the professional world we have a rule that is learned at the ground level and carried on to the executive position:

Never point out a negative without presenting a solution behind it.

Why?
Because in doing so, you are unintentionally suggesting that your peers are to ignorant, or in job-talk "too <censored>ing stupid" to even see the problem.
What I am trying to say, as a business traveller who has already logged more than 7000 miles in travel in the last 3 weeks, is that we all know what you are saying- but it really doesnt mean anything.

Back to the car analogy- Lets put governors and digital chips in our automobiles that monitor speed- and that way, you cannot exceed the speed limit no matter where you are. The chips will know where you are, and thus, it will limit your speed.

Then lets add the feature where your car will not move unless everyone in the vehicle has a seatbelt on.

And an automatic shut down feature if you happen to do something illegal like blow a stop sign, or an illegal u-turn.

While we are at it, a required breathalyzer injection system between the hours of 5pm and 6am Monday through Friday and All day Saturday and Sunday- the days that people abuse alcohol most of the time.

Why not address other hazards too? lets eliminate the radio, not let the car start unless they enter a itinerary into a NAV system, and then make the car stop accelerating if at anytime someone takes one of their hands off the steering wheel for more than 4 seconds?

Sound crazy?
Well when I was at Toyota- ALL of these items were suggested my all sorts of people on behalf of SAFETY and SeCURITY by nations, manufacturers, and people all over the world.

It's a long-stretch analogy but it effectively proves my point- I am a business traveller that accepts the risks associated with travel. And I dont need to reach the point where I am handcuffed, led onto the plan, sat in a chair with a theme park 5 point harness and a drop down lock, where I am not allowed to move until I am released and led back down the jetway and then released- all on behalf of security.

By the way- that was a suggestion made by some idiot in the House in 2002 as a way to ensure our skies were safer- to basically incarcerate passengers before they get on a plane and then release them from arrest following the travel itnerary completion.

No thanks. The article has a great point, but it really is only a negative piece without relevant suggestion of merit for improvement other than implied meaning.

[Duke{CLR}]

Has an airline pilot I can tell you that TSA is far from perfect but its a heck of a lot better then it was before 9/11. Our training has also improved. I have some issues with TSA but I wont voice them here.

I wonder what the NSA or the CIA would do with the money? Are you talking about them handling the security at airports or just the no fly stuff?

[mapes]

Has an airline pilot I can tell you that TSA is far from perfect but its a heck of a lot better then it was before 9/11. Our training has also improved. I have some issues with TSA but I wont voice them here.

I wonder what the NSA or the CIA would do with the money? Are you talking about them handling the security at airports or just the no fly stuff?

I was being a bit over the top with suggesting the CIA get the money. What I meant kinda was funding more intelligence work...


A national ID is not the answer either. The same attack vectors apply when dealing with a national ID. For example a large number of the 911 hijackers had valid ID's drivers licenses.

BTW wth is with this Hammy

I hate to mix topics, but it was a majority Democrat vote that killed the national ID card after 9/11.

I cannot agree with this statement either

In the professional world we have a rule that is learned at the ground level and carried on to the executive position:

Never point out a negative without presenting a solution behind it.
Why?

Because in doing so, you are unintentionally suggesting that your peers are to ignorant, or in job-talk "too <censored>ing stupid" to even see the problem.


My job is to find faults in hardware and software. I do not care how the developer feels about it. Of course I'm professional and I'm never insulting but, honestly.......really


There are a couple of easy ways to make the system form doing nothing to actually doing something.

For example check the ID and the boarding pass at the checkpoint and corroborate it with the no fly list. That puts the fake ID under more scrutiny. Also just like international flights check ID when boarding.

If something doesn't work we should fix it.


If theres one thing I learned about all of this it is this....No matter what seat or class I fly I will be ginning up my own first class/business class tickets so I can go to the premier line through security....You betcha

[Hammy]

So you disagree with me, I can accept that.

However, a National ID card would help us with security.

[Trooper110]

I fine with a National ID card if:

They tie my drivers license in to it so I don't have an extra card there.
They don't put personal information on it (aka SSN, credit information, etc)
They make everyone get one, if you don't have one, no welfare, unemployment, etc.
You MUST show your face on it, I don't care what religion you belong to or what your beliefs are.
They keep the intelligence's agencies greedy little fingers out of things so they can't be used to track people.

Probably think of some other things, but I can see where a National ID card would not be a good idea in a lot of cases, and also where it would within guidelines.

[mapes]

So you disagree with me, I can accept that.

However, a National ID card would help us with security.

The reason why I don't think a national ID will help is the same reasons why current ID's don't help.

You can never prevent forgeries you can only increase the cost to make a forgery

The same way people get fraudulent driver licenses is how people will get fraudulent national ID's. (i.e replacments, or forged birth certificates etc...

I really don't see what a national ID does for us