Rooftops....Yea or Nay

[CarbonFire]

So Rand brought up in another thread his distaste for fighting on rooftops, and I thought it'd be good to get both the community's as well as the official Cain's Lair thoughts on the subject.

For a little bit of background, here is a posting by one of the main DICE guys posted on another forum:
CKMC]
Really this is not an exploit by technical terms.

Two questions I ask myself are:
Does it break the level and give one side a distinct advantage that the other can not match or counter?

Is it fun?

I have not tried this one yet but I have a feeling that the answers are "no" and "yes" respectively.

Interesting bit of information - I have noticed that alot of people like playing Berlin on 64 players. I have tried it and found it great fun. I spoke with the level designer and he was horrified at first since the map was not intended to be played with that many.

When he saw that it was popular and a lot of fun he became happy and said (loosely) "well if its fun then great.......didnt think they would like that".

So - we have found we need to keep an open mind because you guys will do things we dont expect and a lot of time its a lot of fun.

The main thing is fun. If you guys find something going on in your server that you and your friends do not find fun then use your powers to create the environment you want. But we dont want to make official policy or hard code settings when we dont have to as it limits the variety open to you guys as players.

Personally I think rooftops should be fair game. Mostly because its something anyone in a squad with a beacon or a drone can do - so no one gets an overwhelming advantage that you can't counter. Plus...rifle rockets make really good "roof cleaners" so people on roofs are never completely safe :twisted:

Your thoughts?

[Premonition]

ummm. question i have to ask is did i miss the dice guy talking about rooftops?

But
Personally I think rooftops should be fair game.
Why would you say fair game?
Ill use bf2 as a ex. on strike people would get on the warehouse but the mec side could not get on the gas station roof.

So while one side can attack from the main base the other team cant so this gives a distinct advantage to stealing vehicles.

The big question is how do you get to the roof tops and why would you get on them since you cant capture any silos while up there?

correct me if im wrong.

IN special forces players where ment to get on roofs thats why they had grapple hooks and zip lines.

[CarbonFire]

AFAIK there are no roofs that can't be reached by one side or the other. The same tactics work on all roofs for all players.

I should have clarified this as mainly a Conquest/City Map poll....getting on rooftops in Titan mode is trivial ;)

AS for that quote, it was in response to a thread on another forum concerning rooftops and Fall of Berlin - I can't find the original thread now (its either been removed or put into an area I can't access). [DICE]CKMC went on to say that unless being on rooftops makes you invulnerable (like the Hotel bug on Jalalabad in BF2), DICE doesn't have a problem with it. But its a house rule thing really, so thats why I wanted to get everyone's opinion on the subject so there are no misunderstandings.

[FreeLance_FoX]

I agree it's legal but OMG I cannot STAND it when people do nothing but camp rooftops. This morning in CQ there were two enemy squads who did nothing but camp rooftops and they beat the crap out of me man. If only my Squad Leaders would do that.

[Thrashdragon]

I was in a squad with a roof beacon on Berlin today for the first time. We had a couple of minutes of fun, then were very effectively suppressed with rockets and sniper rifles. Since its easy to counter, I don't consider it an exploit. I doubt I'll do it again since it's honestly a lot more fun to be on the ground, plus in order to shoot from way up there you have to skyline yourself and are an instant target...I've been on the other end plenty of times and picked many a shooter off of the roof. It was a mildly entertaining but ultimately useless position to be in.

[Premonition]

AFAIK there are no roofs that can't be reached by one side or the other. The same tactics work on all roofs for all players.

But the question is how do you get on the roofs? For some reason i dont think your walking up steps. How does the team leader get a beacon on the roof?
Keep in mind i havent played 2142 since demo, so im more just rting to understand what your talking about :)

[Jeffro]

ok you put a beacon next to a building and you wind up spawning down onto a roof... personallly i think its fair. think about it this way... is war fair? why can't the opposite team just fight their way through and get to the rooftops also? personally i get agravated with the complaining about "war" and i do not believe its an exploit. if its jumping through walls or something like that then yeah thats not fair at all. lets ask a hypothetical question.... if this was really real life war and you "spawned on a rooftop" what would you do? "i think ill get down and make myself more visible so i can die" :? it is military fact that the higher ground always has the advantage... so the enemy needs to fight their way up and be men about it :) there is my two cents :)

[KINGoFOOLS]

I think it is very annoying. This happened on two maps that I played Berlin and Belgrade. A squad was right over the 1st base on Berlin...from there they can see all of the spawns and were throwing everything off the roof but the kitchen sink... Rockets, nades, rdx, apm's etc.. With a couple of supply people up there it got annoying quick. :pissed:

[Apache Warrior]

...I've been on the other end plenty of times and picked many a shooter off of the roof. It was a mildly entertaining but ultimately useless position to be in.
I love using my Zeller to take out the roofers. :D
Apache

[LIMEY]

...I've been on the other end plenty of times and picked many a shooter off of the roof. It was a mildly entertaining but ultimately useless position to be in.
I love using my Zeller to take out the roofers. :D
Apache

+1

[Nihilis[v]]

A smart commander will arty the roof killing multiple opponents AND destroying their beacon. Even if he doesn't destroy the beacon it can become an area to rack up some easy points via artillery.

[FreeLance_FoX]

The squads this morning didn't even have a beacon. Their Squad Leaders used the drone EMP trick with very good results. I think we should outlaw that one but allow beacon drops.

[thedeadlyassassin]

I have no clue what you guys are talking about lol. Maybe Conquest mode?

[CarbonFire]

The squads this morning didn't even have a beacon. Their Squad Leaders used the drone EMP trick with very good results. I think we should outlaw that one but allow beacon drops.
Its pretty hard to outlaw one and allow the other, as you have to catch them in the act to prove they are doing it. Plus the drone EMP trick is pretty funny to watch, so I say leave it in :twisted:

The problem is you can't leave a grey area - either you CAN be on roofs or you CAN'T. How you get there is up to your creativity. Its like Titan moving. You can't reasonably say "only move the Titan to the first Silo" because opening it up to any movement means someone is going to move it as far as possible. Of course, unlike Titan mode, being on the roof doesn't lag the entire server ;)

[Perro]

I have to say 2 things.

Just the glitch of a beacon can get you on a roof top, so no one without a squad can go up there and kill you, this give you a advantage of the enemy since they cant stop the spawn and they cant kill you. so its glitching and ilegal in TWL, CAL and CPL.

This provide you any advantage thats why you do it, and i know you do it i kill you severals times. If EA or DICE dont like this why when you put a beacon down of a roof you cant spanw, because you are not supose to be there, only a lucky guy can get up top of the roofs so. If you need a commander to kill a beacon up top of the roof isnt fair because if the commander dont want to kill you he will not do it so.

I send multiples msg to cain to restric this as SPANW RAPE and he dont say nothing, but if enough ppl complain he will do something. Just tell me if you want to get kill everytime in your spanw and i will start doing that in fall of berling, a map with only 1 route, only 1 way to get any flag, so isnt fair for the PAC.

I dont think this will hurt us as this can hurt you, i can say if i get kill another time with a guy who use a glitch from the game i will take a SS and report to BFROE.COM thats all, isnt going to be anymore with cain. if you dont have a APC, GUNSHIP or CHOPPER to easy get rid of that beacon you cant use that glitch in the game to spanw all the time you have.

[Zurog]

I FEEL NAKED WITHOUT MY ROOF.

[Zurog]

It won't let me edit my post (CAIN I HATE PHPBB USE E107 IMO) :D

If people can't get up there because they're not in squads, zomg join a squad. It's not THAT difficult. It's also the point of the game - squad based combat.

It's not 'glitching' it's simply manuevering the pod. Not against the rules, you can do it on any map. I never liked TWL or CAL myself, but won't get into the reasoning behind that -- personally I think the reason they do this is because people whine too much because they think it's unfair -- There's about 8 different ways to get anywhere in the game, who said you had to go by THAT particular roof? If you don't like it, don't go near it. That simple.

Secondly, perro, you can spawn on a roof if you put a beacon down. If EA/DICE didn't want this, there flat out wouldn't be a surface there. Also if they didn't want it, they'd have patched it out already. So where's your point?

If a commander doesn't want to help his team mates by killing guys who have the higher ground, he shouldn't be commanding imo. But that goes back to my whole argument that commanders run the full gamut.

Annoying? Yeah if you keep rushing it sure, but it's part of the game. People sitting in the titan dropping APMs and RDX in every entrance is annoying to me, but it's part of the game.

A piping hot dish of cold love here: get over it.

[Premonition]

Very good points perro. The main thing is if it does give a advantage and is it fair. The fact is if this is using a glitch no CLR should be doing it, because we believe in sportsmanship and not cheating.

Now Ive played on twl and the other ladder have generally the same concept for rules. Ive seen TWL go both ways on glitchs.
1)they said its in the game and its on the map so its fair
then
2)they redid the rules and considered glitching in walls a cheat and made it illegal.
(any ut ctf`er im sure remeber nov`s flag run glitch. thats the ex i used above.)

This provide you any advantage thats why you do it, and i know you do it i kill you severals times. If EA or DICE dont like this why when you put a beacon down of a roof you cant spanw, because you are not supose to be there, only a lucky guy can get up top of the roofs so. If you need a commander to kill a beacon up top of the roof isnt fair because if the commander dont want to kill you he will not do it so.

Thats a very good arguement against doing it and i think you have legit points there.

I send multiples msg to cain to restric this as SPANW RAPE and he dont say nothing, but if enough ppl complain he will do something. Just tell me if you want to get kill everytime in your spanw and i will start doing that in fall of berling, a map with only 1 route, only 1 way to get any flag, so isnt fair for the PAC.

You have to keep in mind Cain is a very busy person. But even a admin doesnt make rules. Cain looks at the big picture and if its a issue where its disrupting people from being able to play, then im sure he will consider it.
But he wont make a rule because a few people use a lame tatic to get points. If the overall community feels this is a form of cheating it will be addressed as such.

I dont think this will hurt us as this can hurt you, i can say if i get kill another time with a guy who use a glitch from the game i will take a SS and report to BFROE.COM thats all, isnt going to be anymore with cain. if you dont have a APC, GUNSHIP or CHOPPER to easy get rid of that beacon you cant use that glitch in the game to spanw all the time you have.

Now that is of course your right to report players to them if you like. Im not sure what they can do. Maybe they can get stats reset or something.
But its every players right.
This seems to be a fairly new issue though. since its hasnt generated any complaints outside of this thread.

The best thing to do for any situation . Is test your theories of why its a glitch. take screenshots and submit them to a admin or cain along with exact reasons why its unfair and how it ruins the fun of others.

But until then we dont have a rule against it so there is nothing against doing it. But be warned that if this is a form of exploiting then people will report those players to cain and they wont wanna be caught for cheating here. As Cain is part of the punkbuster network where he shares bans not only on his servers but to every server on the punkbuster network.

But we have to keep in mind. Cainslair is a public community thats not bound by ladder rules like TWL or setup for competitive play. So our rules dont reflect what they might have.

[Premonition]

Well Zurog we have to be open to both sides. Especially since that seems to why the thread was created.

But we have to see both sides of the debate to see if there is a real issue with it. So if your in favor of it or not we still should keep a open mind about it.
Get all perspectives.

[=IR=genEricSVG]

Why would BFROE.com have anything to say about server admins allowing/disallowing something in-game that has never been discussed by EA ??? It's not as if they're running a knife-pistol only server or something else geared so people can illegally gain points or ranks ... it may not be my place to say it , but I think it's very disrespectful to come into someone else's forums and threaten BFROE when you disagree/don't like something :roll:

[Zurog]

I'm fairly open minded, even if my post seemed direct. I'm just saying that a lot of the stuff he's pointing out as to why it's unfair are because people are unwilling to do things -- drop artillery etc -- to kill whoever is up there. I think my response was more or less to validate my point of view based on what he's saying are the bare bones reasons that something is an exploit based on personal bias and complaints.

I think it's being made an issue because someone is getting mad that they're getting killed. That's really it. It's like when someone says "man that shuko/bianchi is way overpowered" or if someone complains that battle walkers own too much.

I agree with what =IR=genEricSVG said, in that it is sort of disrespectful to run around threatening BFROE.

[imlittlev]

ummm. question i have to ask is did i miss the dice guy talking about rooftops?

But
Personally I think rooftops should be fair game.
Why would you say fair game?
Ill use bf2 as a ex. on strike people would get on the warehouse but the mec side could not get on the gas station roof.


the US still had that as fair game, the factory was NOT , i repeat, NOT a UCB.

yes, MEC defends it fanaticly but its not an uncappable

[CarbonFire]

A few good points...
Being open to both sides of the debate is important, you are correct DaNIGHT. And thats why I started this thread.

No sense in having people report this if it is in fact a legitimate strategy. And of course, if the "powers that be" decide the roof is off limits, we should all abide by that and stay off of them.

So.....is it glitching? Perhaps, but many things in the game are. I think the real point is whether or not its an abusive "feature", regardless of if it was intended or not. It only takes 2 people in order for you to make the rooftops available. This does of course make most roofs unreachable by lone-wolfs. But as Zurog stated, this is a squad-based game - its not that hard to get one other person to squad up.

Also, there ia almost ALWAYS more than 1 roof available to pod up to. so even if the enemy has an entire roof covered, you can just combat them by spawning on a nearby roof. And most roofs are so high that the enemy HAS to look over the edge in order to fight, making them prime sniper/rifle rocket fodder (as Apache and Limey deftly alluded to). And of course there is always the orb strike that is quite good at cleaning all but the most stubborn roof rats :2thumbs:

Doing things to benefit your team and your squad is smart tactics. As long as it is fair and equally available to all (ie not an UNFAIR advantage). BFROE doesn't really even apply here, because this is far more of a "house rule" than a abusive exploit. If you are on a roof directly next to an uncap, then of course that is spawn camping and should be dealt with accordingly.:slap:

And as for the spawn beacon roof access......just spin to win.

[Premonition]

Il admit, this doesn't seem like the most beneficial exploit if it is indeed one.
When i think game altering exploits, first thing comes to mind is landing helicopters in the the core of the titan.

Keep in mind, im like you all and just talking about it. I'm just curious about it.
From being a admin here i know if it has anything to do with exploits people will complain in time. Its not to say there is anything wrong with that and in fact we encourage it. Thats why i say be weary of doing it. But if you can get there via legit means (via podding) then it is fair game. It just took a little skill to do it.

Thank you for posting about it. Its a interesting topic and very insightful.

[tigershilone]

Personally, I dont have a problem with it. They have to show themselves over the edge, and i got an easy 4 kills the other night shooting at the roofline with the basic assault gun and I have less than 2 hours into this game. At most, it is one full squad and their mobility is severely curtailed, so they only have a small tactical part on the map. This isn't like the building glitches inside allowing you to shoot outside with no fear of counterattack like certain BF2 versions, that is a glitch/exploit. This is more of a creative use and some skill guiding a spawn pod! In comparison, in BF2 you can get onto every single building on wake island map if you know how. It's not that great of an advantage adn a commder orbital strike should clear out annoyances if they are big enough! Man, as soon as someone uses some creativity the enemy cries foul, ban him, I havent figured out how to do that and you must be hacking! Get over it and adjust to the situation, there is always a counter, you just have to come up with it.


I have to say 2 things.

Just the glitch of a beacon can get you on a roof top, so no one without a squad can go up there and kill you, this give you a advantage of the enemy since they cant stop the spawn and they cant kill you. so its glitching and ilegal in TWL, CAL and CPL.

This provide you any advantage thats why you do it, and i know you do it i kill you severals times. If EA or DICE dont like this why when you put a beacon down of a roof you cant spanw, because you are not supose to be there, only a lucky guy can get up top of the roofs so. If you need a commander to kill a beacon up top of the roof isnt fair because if the commander dont want to kill you he will not do it so.

I send multiples msg to cain to restric this as SPANW RAPE and he dont say nothing, but if enough ppl complain he will do something. Just tell me if you want to get kill everytime in your spanw and i will start doing that in fall of berling, a map with only 1 route, only 1 way to get any flag, so isnt fair for the PAC.

I dont think this will hurt us as this can hurt you, i can say if i get kill another time with a guy who use a glitch from the game i will take a SS and report to BFROE.COM thats all, isnt going to be anymore with cain. if you dont have a APC, GUNSHIP or CHOPPER to easy get rid of that beacon you cant use that glitch in the game to spanw all the time you have.


Perro, I respect your opinion and you are a great player from what I have seen and play fairly. However, you have made 2 questionable assertations here:

#1 "I will take SS and report to BFROE.com" I spent over an hour at BFROE.com reading through their Roe and could not find any concrete rule against roof spawn beacons. There are a couple of forum subjects about it, but no rules I saw against it. Closest thing I could see was http://www.bfroe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1639. If you have the rules against this, I would love to see it posted.

#2 "isnt going to be anymore with Cain" Huh????? What is this, a threat? Why? Are you some sort of super secret EA/Dice inspector with allmighty powers who is going to shut down the server because you dont like the way a couple of ppl on there play? You come across as somebody who is going to report everyone in an attempt to get them banned/stats reset and is not even giving CAin a chance to make policy on this "glitch", as you call it. Bottom line, you are not an admin and you are not the owner. This is CAin's server and he is the one who pays for it, therefore he makes the rules and he also has to abide by the ROE of EA! I guess I am ranting on here, but I feel that you threatened me personally if I ever use that roof spawn technique. So far it is not against the rules and I don't like being threatened. I apologise in advance if I am coming across to strongly, but I just say what is on my mind with out any BS and I am not trying to start a flame thread, sorry Perro. this is a new game, lets give Server owners the benefit of the doubt and i'm sure if this is a huge problem a future patch will come out to prevent it. For now, it is part of the game, adapt and survive.

Tiger_Shilone

[goldenfooler]

[quote="tigershilone"]Personally, I dont have a problem with it. They have to show themselves over the edge, and i got an easy 4 kills the other night shooting at the roofline with the basic assault gun and I have less than 2 hours into this game. At most, it is one full squad and their mobility is severely curtailed, so they only have a small tactical part on the map. This isn't like the building glitches inside allowing you to shoot outside with no fear of counterattack like certain BF2 versions, that is a glitch/exploit. This is more of a creative use and some skill guiding a spawn pod! In comparison, in BF2 you can get onto every single building on wake island map if you know how. It's not that great of an advantage adn a commder orbital strike should clear out annoyances if they are big enough! Man, as soon as someone uses some creativity the enemy cries foul, ban him, I havent figured out how to do that and you must be hacking! Get over it and adjust to the situation, there is always a counter, you just have to come up with it.

I agree that in most instances the people on the roof have absolutly nothing to gain, EXCEPT in a few maps...one being the fall of berlin(think thats the name), where one team needs to break through the spawn and it becomes routs way to easily. Also in that map you can just stand on the outcropping above the flag and just take it back without touching the ground. Commander artillery isn't anything like it was in bf2(wish it was) where people really feared it coming down. Yea you run but splash damage is very minmial and apms/nades have a larger damage splash radius then the commander artillery.

[Perro]

I have the right to report any player i think its glitching, just think about this:

Only 1 of 6 players spawn on top of the building, you have to make another squad to put another beacon in the roof.

This make you die, spanw and see if you got lucky, place another beacon and start fighting against the 6 players in that roof.

You almost cant see down but to 2-4 guys trowing nades to defend a flag will be efective. and you will not get kill because you dont have to see the ppl in the flag, just trow nades like crazy no one will kill you. you will kill thats for sure.

If someone kill you, you will be spawning again, no one can stop that since the enemy cant destroy the beacon (only the commander).

Why EA make those buildings really high, maybe because they dont want ppl there. even with a APC its really hard to reach one of the roof.

Why you do it, maybe because like most of the people say its a easy kill because they have to be outside of the buiding to shoot. so the half of the team waste their time just covering that flag, this will give to your team lots of advantage since half of the other team its trying to kill those 6 in the roof. not all the time its a easy kill.

To me isnt fair play since you have to covert the ground and start looking of all the building to see anyone up there.

If this isnt a greath thing why you want to do it?, why you like to do this?

What happen if everyone in the game its on a roof? did you think the game was made to fight in a roof?

Only a few spots give you the chance to reach that roof, isnt in any place of the map so.

I report almost anything in the server to keep it clean, if no one do nothing or say nothing i will do it with the BFROE since they check that. what happen when you get push into the crates in any building its almost the same only a few can do it and no one can kill you and you can kill anyone close to that crate.

In berlin ppl put that beacon to spawn into the building in the 1st flag, this give you a perfect way to trow down demopacks and defend the flag, ppl shoot the APC in a UCB, ppl kill in a UCB so.

I say i will report and i will do it im just dont want to report ppl who have CLR tags thats why i say it, i can just do it and no say nothing so this isnt a bad thing look at the good thing. They maybe dont do nothing or EA will fix this (lol again waiting for ea to fix the game) but you dont want ppl saying you are a exploiter and a lot of ppl who dont know to reach that roof will think its hacking.

Like i say if you want to do it, just do it its ok for me. i will check every roof in the map and then focus on the ground to get a flag.

Stats padder always go to the EA forums and say, ISNT OUR FAULT, WE DONT DO NOTHING, ITS A MALFUNTION OF THE GAME, WE JUST DO IT ITS EA FAULT NOT US. its the same for this, so if you have any chance to get into a chopper and do the choper exploit or glitch or what ever you want to call that do it, they can kill you, you just get 100 points per min so. its fair game.

[configm]

yahdie yahdie yahhhh and all that.

When cain's conquest server is full i go play on a 64 man 24/7 berlin map and its nothing but roof camping, nade thowing, spamming, wh*res. Infact, since that server is packed all the time and roof camping is such a constant, nearly everyone does it. Infact, one round when i was PAC we had all the flags capped, but there were over 3 full squads on 3 different roofs surrounding the PAC uncap. That was spawn rape, and it certianly was spawn rape when we had yet to cap the crossroads. Before a few hours ago i had no clue myself as to how to get on to those roofs. I was trying to do it using APC pods and quickly learned they don't fly nearly high enough. So because the answer was not obvious to me, i felt it to be out of intended, and proper game play. This community will only likely grow from new players who aren't as familar with these mechanics as most of you are. So it is intimidating, and for some people, just not any fun to get raped from roof tops. Because face it, when you first started playing Berlin, and you got shot by someone you didn't see. You didn't look at the roofs and wonder. But you have to now. I'll admit its a creative use of beacons and game mechanics. But other than that i find it to be distateful.

And while you may expose yourself to fire while you're on that roof. Most of the time if you get sniped while up there, you will have a teammate able to res you. So its not nearly so simple as we shoot you, you die, you have to run back there. And to further illustrate that, you have to be in a squad to do it, someone in that squad is likely to atleast have the defibulator. And if not, oh well you take your chances dropping onto the roof again.

I'd like to see it prohibited by every server community if DICE won't man up and do it.

[=IR=genEricSVG]

I play titan almost exclusively , and as such have never really seen anything to gain by getting on the rooftops (except to get killed by helo gunners) , but I would agree that if they have to go through a specific set of actions to trick the game into letting them into/on said area , then that probably should be disallowed :roll:

[Zurog]

There's no trickery to it. It works on the same basis of getting on the top of your own titan by using the pods; You just aim for it.

[Reuvil RED]

If EA meant for us to get on roof tops then anyone could when they wanted to. In this case it's an unintended side effect of the beacons.

Since everyone in a squad can't just get on a building I don't think it's an honorable tactic. If I could just lay a beacon next to your building and guarantee my entire squad could land on top and fight you, then maybe. That's not the case, it's hit or miss and while not totally illegal somewhat immoral.

And yes you can shoot people off of the buildings but they can still spawn back up there if they have a beacon. Plus on Berlin they can parachute down on the flag, another non-intentional means for taking that flag.

I hope they just slope the roof tops so you slide off for those 10 story buildings. If you can't pod out of an APC on it you shouldn't be on it.

:?

[Apache Warrior]

If EA meant for us to get on roof tops then anyone could when they wanted to.
If God had meant for us to run around without any clothes on we would have been born that way. :shock: :? :D
Apache

[goldenfooler]

If EA meant for us to get on roof tops then anyone could when they wanted to.
If God had meant for us to run around without any clothes on we would have been born that way. :shock: :? :D
Apache

No we would all just go blind as you ran in front of us :twisted:

[Dead...Again]

Well, personally, I find it kind of annoying, but IMO it should be allowed. As has been pointed out before:
1. any squad can do it.
2. it is easily combated.
For these two reasons, I don't feel that it gives anyone an unfair advantage.

In fact, it is sometimes a disadvantage. I was playing last night on Berlin, and there were 3 enemy squads on 3 different roofs. They probably got some extra kills, but as a result of them camping on the roofs, we won the round.

One question, though: You can control the beacon pods? I didn't think you could control those.

[juneau]

If EA meant for us to get on roof tops then anyone could when they wanted to.
If God had meant for us to run around without any clothes on we would have been born that way. :shock: :? :D
Apache

No we would all just go blind as you ran in front of us :twisted:

:tard:

[EICAS{CLR}]

I think that we need to really sit back and first of all, define exactly what a glitch is, what makes a particular glitch "tactic" unfair. Then decide if in fact the glitch is a game mechanic that is unfair to all. And what is the difference between a glitch, exploit and a "game mechanic" issue. IF EA/DICE decides that it is an unfair glitch or exploit, then they will issue a patch for it, and it disappears. But until a universal, one size fits all definition of the terms mentioned is created, then we need to adapt and overcome the problem.

IMHO, not every tactic using game mechanics is technically unfair. I agree the use of bots, dolphin diving, and other gamey tactics, which are technically glitches, are unfair. But I've learned how to counter them. That is what makes this game so enjoyable. There is always more than one way to accomplish the same task.

IF you consider battling from a rooftop "gamey, a glitch that should not be used, or unfair" then you should also complain about the PAC tank being able to strafe sideway and circle strafe as a "glitch or gamey tactic" since the EU tank can't. I'm not...

Again, before this debate even goes further, we need to decide the questions proposed in the first paragraph. What is a glitch and when does it become an exploit.

EICAS

[configm]

I think that we need to really sit back and first of all, define exactly what a glitch is, what makes a particular glitch "tactic" unfair. Then decide if in fact the glitch is a game mechanic that is unfair to all. And what is the difference between a glitch, exploit and a "game mechanic" issue. IF EA/DICE decides that it is an unfair glitch or exploit, then they will issue a patch for it, and it disappears. But until a universal, one size fits all definition of the terms mentioned is created, then we need to adapt and overcome the problem.

IMHO, not every tactic using game mechanics is technically unfair. I agree the use of bots, dolphin diving, and other gamey tactics, which are technically glitches, are unfair. But I've learned how to counter them. That is what makes this game so enjoyable. There is always more than one way to accomplish the same task.

IF you consider battling from a rooftop "gamey, a glitch that should not be used, or unfair" then you should also complain about the PAC tank being able to strafe sideway and circle strafe as a "glitch or gamey tactic" since the EU tank can't. I'm not...

Again, before this debate even goes further, we need to decide the questions proposed in the first paragraph. What is a glitch and when does it become an exploit.

EICAS

The PAC Tank is a hover tank, a non treaded vehicle. It was explictitly in DICE's design to allow it more manuverability as opposed to the older, more conventional EU tank. I don't see how that relates to roof camping or the "creative" use of game mechanics at all. If we were meant to get on roofs there would be a way for everyone reguardless of being in a squad or not to get up there.

[Premonition]

IF EA/DICE decides that it is an unfair glitch or exploit, then they will issue a patch for it, and it disappears.

We can hope, but its EA where talking about here... break 2 things to fix 1.
During beta i myself duplicated a titan exploit. Told DICE step by step how to do it. Took screenshots. Needless to say they either cant fix it or wont fix it.


wiki 4tw :) would be a good time for a smily...
good threads
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glitching

Noun
Singular
exploit

Past participle
exploited


Present participle
exploiting

to exploit (third-person singular simple present exploits, present participle exploiting, simple past exploited, past participle exploited)

1. To use for one's own advantage.

[edit] Synonyms

* (use for one's own advantage): take advantage of, use

[EICAS{CLR}]

Configm, Yes I know that and am very well aware of it. The point I was trying to make, and seem to have not done so, was this.

Just because not everyone can not do it, does not in my honest opinion make it something that we need to eliminate or ban. Therefore, if Dice did not make it off limits, or not within the realm of play, then as far as I know, it is allowed. UNLESS, note the word unless, it becomes an exploit or other "unfair" game breaking or modifying issue. For example, in BF2, people would get on top of roofs, when Friendly Fire was off, by exploding C4 underneath them to lauch them skywards. Could not be done with FF on. Hence in my opinon, an exploit. They exploited the games' mechanics to seek an unfair advantage which was not present under all conditions. Now, getting on top of the roof, by jumping on top of a VOD, then on the gun mount, and then a sign support to get on top of the roofs, not an exploit nor unfair advantage, as it was a "creative" use of the game mechanics of the game, regardless of the server setup or any other factor. Now, as far as I can determine, the roof top issue, is the use of a game mechanic in a creative way. Now, would we be against it, if we could use that type of mechanic to get aboard the enemy titan??? (Humm, never thought of that use for the droid til now, or has anyone even seen it done???).. or postion ourselves to attack the defenses of it???

Again, my question still remains...by what definitions are we going by as asked in the first paragraph of my post.

EICAS..

[Premonition]

Again, my question still remains...by what definitions are we going by as asked in the first paragraph of my post.

Glitching is the controversial practice of finding and exploiting flaws in modern video games to achieve something that was not intended by the game designers. Gamers who engage in this practice are known as glitchers (or cheaters, depending on whether or not you agree with glitching.) Glitchers can be found on console video games as well as computer games. With the advent of high speed multiplayer gaming in the form of services such as Xbox Live and PlayStation Network, glitching has grown in popularity. Despite this gain in popularity, glitching is still considered a subculture of gaming and has retained a negative image in the eyes of many gamers.

Why Do People Glitch?

Glitchers do not see themselves as cheaters and many times do not even use their glitches to gain an advantage in games. Glitchers see their exploits as fair and believe that "if it is in the game, and anybody can do it, it is legal." While the "fairness of glitches" is still debated, rarely do programmers make such a grievous mistake that it creates a glitch that is "undefeatable". Glitches often involve jumping to places that are above the normal plane of vision of other players. Many glitches are areas obscured from sight by walls that have no "barrier physics" to them, that is, they appear to be solid but aren't and thus allow players to walk into them and remain hidden. Glitches vary in their usefulness in multiplayer games, from areas a glitcher can get trapped in to places where snipers can shoot from but cannot be shot themselves. Often times, entering a glitch requires the performance of actions that leave a player exposed for a period of time that makes it hard to enter without being seen or killed.

Thats the best definition i could find.

[EICAS{CLR}]

Okay, I agree with that definition. So, now does using equipment in the game, the recon droid, to get on top of the roof top a glitch???

And can we say that the use to do so, a use of the said equipment in this manner exploiting a flaw to achieve something that was not intended by the game designers???

EICAS

[Perro]

Again, my question still remains...by what definitions are we going by as asked in the first paragraph of my post.
EICAS..

Just try to jump on a building placing a beacon, let me know if you can move the POD like in the titan.

Just aim and you will be in the roof. its just like that easy.

[Apache Warrior]

SLSB Pods are not steerable.
Apache

[Perro]

SLSB Pods are not steerable.
Apache

So explain how they get into the roof?

Isnt a easy thing like they say?

[configm]

it drops you randomly in a radius around the beacon so you have to take your chances of hitting the roof or missing and likely getting owned since you land right in the middle of the enemy most of the time.

[SScamaro68]

I didn't read the whole thread but I voted and my .02 is this.

Both sides can achieve the same thing.

I played on the rooftops for the first time today on fall of berlin.

We were sniping from the top and the guys at the bottom were sniping us. Not only that the opposing side got their guys on top as well and were sniping us in return.

If one side had a distinct advantage over the other I would have participated.

Frank

[SScamaro68]

correction: "I wouldn't have participated"

[WW_KROIL]

Just play the game.

[Cain]

Just play the game.

I agree ...

KROIL what's up bud ??? Long time no see ...

:2thumbs:

[Henry06x]

no problem with it if you have good enuff team work to get there do what you want...

[Majorhutch]

lol

this reminds me of when BF 2 started having Vehicle drops for commander after patch update

the jeeps destroyed... Artillery.....roof top snipers.....damaged APCs and Damaged Tanks ..people on a flag trying to capture it


some people biztched and biztched hey man thats exploiting IM gonna go tell my mommie Bofe on you.....

om gosh we all just waited for a fix on the next patch ...but all the adult players did it :)

[Dead_And_Gone]

I agree with Apache. A team got on a VERY tall roof. I took my Zeller and had TONS of fun shooting off heads. Exploit? Once you know they are up there, it is a turkey shoot to me. :)

But I agree that on Berlin, breaking out is a royal pain. Actually got a -2 points on one round that we were owned so badly on. Did find a way to break out after lots of experimenting, but you need to be the squad leader, and get just a little lucky. (Or #2 Have Commander temp clear a path for you using orbital strike)

Having said that, I can see where at least getting on a roof would allow the team to do SOMETHING other than die a gloriously useless death, over and over. A well managed PAC can totally block any attempts at breakout on Berlin for the most part. I won't do the roof thing, but you can see where it would be attractive to a hemmed in team.

Dead_And_Gone

[Rand{CLR}]

Having said that, I can see where at least getting on a roof would allow the team to do SOMETHING other than die a gloriously useless death, over and over. A well managed PAC can totally block any attempts at breakout on Berlin for the most part. I won't do the roof thing, but you can see where it would be attractive to a hemmed in team.

Dead_And_Gone

Point of clarification, it's the PAC who starts with just the uncap, and the EU that has everything else. So a well managed EU team can block breakouts. Same goes for Camp Gibraltar, Minsk, and Cerbere Landing. There isn't a single like map for the PAC, where they start out with a stronger position than the EU. :pissed:

-Rand

[Dose]

At first I could care less about ppl on the roofs, but as of late it frustrates me more and more. I've been on them from time to time myself, so I'm guilty also. However the more I see people do it, the weaker I think it is. Belgrade and FoB especially. It's kind of lame guys can spam chuck nades, apm's, RDX, and sentry guns over and over and over etc. and there's really not a whole lot you can do. Sure, it's probably a wet dream for the sniper on the ground picking them off, but that doesn't solve the fact that they'll undoubtedly be back via beacon to resume the raining of more explosives and the like.
Blowing the beacon up as commander is also a bit easier said than done. Sometimes you miss it and it falls through the arti cracks. And sometimes it's not visible or on the ground next to the building. Even if you do get it, it's usually only a matter of minutes before people are back up there anyways.

I'm not sure I'd call it an exploit, but all in all it's kind of a cheap way to rack up points. As I've said I've been up there before, but at this point I'm over it. If I'm in a squad with a beacon up there I'll either immediately jump off, or spawn some place else.

[goldenfooler]

Having said that, I can see where at least getting on a roof would allow the team to do SOMETHING other than die a gloriously useless death, over and over. A well managed PAC can totally block any attempts at breakout on Berlin for the most part. I won't do the roof thing, but you can see where it would be attractive to a hemmed in team.

Dead_And_Gone

Point of clarification, it's the PAC who starts with just the uncap, and the EU that has everything else. So a well managed EU team can block breakouts. Same goes for Camp Gibraltar, Minsk, and Cerbere Landing. There isn't a single like map for the PAC, where they start out with a stronger position than the EU. :pissed:

-Rand

rand i agree but in every map but fall of berlin there are multiple roots around things. Cerbere landing has at least 6 routes and a squad can get through,Gibraltar while harder still has at least 4 areas and there aren't any apcs to spawn camp the area. Minisk i can't remember which one that is. The other ones i can at least get around 1 out of 5 times. Once you figure out where they are protecting find the hole, this can't be done in berlin as there is only 3 routes. A good spawn beacon and a full squad can usually do alot of harm ... or at least pull people away from the main action so that it weakens the front.

[configm]

Having said that, I can see where at least getting on a roof would allow the team to do SOMETHING other than die a gloriously useless death, over and over. A well managed PAC can totally block any attempts at breakout on Berlin for the most part. I won't do the roof thing, but you can see where it would be attractive to a hemmed in team.

Dead_And_Gone

Point of clarification, it's the PAC who starts with just the uncap, and the EU that has everything else. So a well managed EU team can block breakouts. Same goes for Camp Gibraltar, Minsk, and Cerbere Landing. There isn't a single like map for the PAC, where they start out with a stronger position than the EU. :pissed:

-Rand

rand i agree but in every map but fall of berlin there are multiple roots around things. Cerbere landing has at least 6 routes and a squad can get through,Gibraltar while harder still has at least 4 areas and there aren't any apcs to spawn camp the area. Minisk i can't remember which one that is. The other ones i can at least get around 1 out of 5 times. Once you figure out where they are protecting find the hole, this can't be done in berlin as there is only 3 routes. A good spawn beacon and a full squad can usually do alot of harm ... or at least pull people away from the main action so that it weakens the front.

FoB is terrible because there is little chance to break through reguardless of 'skill' or teamwork. What happens 98% of the time is this.

The eastern pass for the PAC is spammed with nades all round long making is suicide to even think about going there.

The middle is camped by every sniper on the map + standard infantry + mines. Its coverable from nearly every spot along the crossroad.

The western alley is usually camped by either a walker or a APC and a full squad of EU. Typically the EU squad ends up in the ruined building or at the bldg that looks directly into the PAC uncap. Note the APC/walker can barrage the piss out of the crossroads while watching the western alley. It makes a frontal assualt retardedly difficult and with the fence built between the bldgs just past the west alley its not possible to effectively assualt from there either.

The only true hope the PAC has is to somehow get over the eastern edge and passed the crossroads and back cap some flags. At that point the EU will generally drop back and try to recap. From there the PAC can take crossroads, and usually when that happens the PAC takes atleast 2 more.

But that happens 2% of the time.

[Apache Warrior]

I don't understand EA's thought processes. :?
For example on Titan, Minsk has all of the Silos neutral at the start. On Conquest the EU has all of the flags. The map would have been a great map if both sides started out with all silos neutral.
Apache

[Rand{CLR}]

Having said that, I can see where at least getting on a roof would allow the team to do SOMETHING other than die a gloriously useless death, over and over. A well managed PAC can totally block any attempts at breakout on Berlin for the most part. I won't do the roof thing, but you can see where it would be attractive to a hemmed in team.

Dead_And_Gone

Point of clarification, it's the PAC who starts with just the uncap, and the EU that has everything else. So a well managed EU team can block breakouts. Same goes for Camp Gibraltar, Minsk, and Cerbere Landing. There isn't a single like map for the PAC, where they start out with a stronger position than the EU. :pissed:

-Rand

Minisk i can't remember which one that is.

Minsk is the snowy one with the tall buildings on one side. The PAC starts at the eastern end, and there is a bridge chokepoint leading to the first flag, with two towers flanking it and those strange covered walkway/trenches. If the EU team is halfway decent, the ONLY way to bypass this chokepoint is by putting squad leaders on the attack jet and using it to get behind the lines, bail, and set up beacons. EU has EVERY flag in this map by the way, and within about 45 seconds can have 2 walkers and 4 tanks at the chokepoint, and 2 apcs.

The jet thing happens maybe 1 time in 10 or 20, because most of the time some moron or other gets the jet and proceeds to get it blown up or tries to attack the chokepoint for useless kills.

-Rand

[CarbonFire]

Minsk is the snowy one with the tall buildings on one side. The PAC starts at the eastern end, and there is a bridge chokepoint leading to the first flag, with two towers flanking it and those strange covered walkway/trenches. If the EU team is halfway decent, the ONLY way to bypass this chokepoint is by putting squad leaders on the attack jet and using it to get behind the lines, bail, and set up beacons. EU has EVERY flag in this map by the way, and within about 45 seconds can have 2 walkers and 4 tanks at the chokepoint, and 2 apcs.

The jet thing happens maybe 1 time in 10 or 20, because most of the time some moron or other gets the jet and proceeds to get it blown up or tries to attack the chokepoint for useless kills.

-Rand
Every single time I play Minsk as PAC, I camp the Gunship to get to the back flags if no one else has. I've played that map over 60 times on conquest, and I think I spawned at the "infantry spawn point" at the first flag a total of once. Its just a useless place to get a few kills while you watch your team get raped, so I tend to avoid that area. The map does get a bit better once the PAC gets a back flag, but even then it becomes a ring-around-the-rosie CP hopping map.

Minsk is a pretty screwed up map though. Like most of the Conquest Assault maps, the EU controls most if not all the maps. This is (I believe) is DICE trying to stay accurate to their futuristic psuedo-WWII redux storyline. The PAC is attacking the EU in the same way Germany attacked the rest of Europe, so the EU is on the defensive. Thats why they don't have uncaps, thus (theroetically) allowing the PAC the ability to win the map by taking all the points. Rarely happens, but its something the defenders have to worry about.

And now :back:
The roofs of most of the buildings on FoB are too high to just safely chuck nades over the edge to get kills. You HAVE to look over the edge, which means you can shoot them. Perhaps they can get revived, but thats when you go on the roof to counter them (or get the Commander to orbstrike them). Just throw down a beacon near an adjecent building and spin towards the roof when you spawn. It really doesnt take much to match the roof campers, thats why it doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Perhaps its a big deal on Belgrade and other maps with shorter buildings. I just don't see people on the roof having that much effect on the battlefield - except perhaps that the PAC gets another possible route out of the annoying roadblock on Berlin.