minority violence in Chicago

[Skud]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/08/chicago.children.slain/index.html

The thing that I dislike about this and similar articles, is they blame the police, the schools, the system, but not the parents of the perpetrators. In the article they say there would be outrage if this were happening in more upscale neighborhoods. Well, I'd like to point out that the parents in more upscale neighborhoods do NOT, generally, let their kids drop out of school. They, more often than not, actively participate in the child's education ("how are the grades, son?"...go to parent teacher conferences, etc.), and take action if the kid is having problems.

I think that the police and the schools are doing what they can under the limitations of our laws. If they went in a rounded up folks from neighborhoods there would be cries of discrimination or racial profiling, law suits, etc. When they do go in looking for evidence few people are willing to give them information, because, of course, they are the police...and giving them info would be "selling out", and make the informer a likely candidate for retribution from the filth that does these things.

Well, I could write a few chapters on the subject, but I'll leave it here. Just had to vent again about everyone being blamed for the actions of the criminals besides the criminals and their families.

[Furryappleseed]

In my experience, lower income parents tend to emphasize getting an education the same if not more than higher income families. There is no living off your parents wealth and the only way to escape the neighborhood is to go to college. There is a certain age though that a parent can only hope the child will do whats right. You are bound to have more children go the wrong route when surroundings are as bad as they are there. As for the dropouts... CNN has learned that none of the city's 36 victims this year was a dropout.

The article blames everyone, there is a quote that says "we all are" when asked who is failing these children. But there is the thought that if this was happening in a more upscale neighborhood, things would be different. We would be seeing it weekly on the news with headlines and updates. That is something I do not doubt.I don't want to make this a race thing as I believe its a class issue, though it probably will ineveitably end up there.

It is a nasty situation. How many upscale parents have to deal with a child being threatened by a gang? There are so many factors and it seems like there is no end to the circle, with no fix.

[Hammy]

The reality here is that Chicago has a voice now that their former State rep is in the White House.

The minorities of Chicago vs. the minorities of all Major Metropolis's in the US, not very different in idea or factor.:|

In general it's all a bad deal.

[mapes]

I can kinda see the point about this type of thing happening in lower income areas. Primarily because gangs frequent those areas and not upscale areas. Regardless of the area gangs need to be exterminated

[Nomadicus]

To me, one has to look at this analytically. The article is more designed to stir up emotion . . . fine in this case since it is meant to get something done.

Looking at the numbers, one has to draw some conclusions. One such conclusion that has overwhelming evidence is that children without fathers have the highest crime rates, school drop out rates, etc.

I take it a step further and look at what our welfare system does. It pays for single moms, for the health and well being of their fatherless child. The unintended consequence is that the father of the child takes off knowing the system will take care of his child. The father doesn't care about child support or what can happen legally. Thus, the first crime is committed teaching the child "this is how it is supposed to be." This happens in far to many cases.

I am not saying this is the only cause, but this is one major cause of the violence you get years and years later. It is self perpetuating. (Teen) father gets laid, (teen) mother gets baby, welfare money takes care of the child abdicating father from responsibility. Add a year or two or three, rinse repeat with new father.

All this teaches the child the wrong thing as he grows up and hence more violence. Today we have a generation or two of this.

Again, I am not saying this is the only root cause, but the evidence is so significant, regardless of race, we cannot ignore the fact our own system helps perpetuate this problem.

[Duke{CLR}]

The reality is that this does not happen in wealthy neighborhoods because the people there wouldn't stand for it. They would take action and get things done that's why it is a nice neighborhood. They haven't let it decline to point where it is uncontrollable. The mention of wealthy neighborhoods is just a way to sprinkle a little class envy in the story to drum up emotions.

The people in the crappy neighborhoods have had generations of poverty for many reasons. Many of them blame the rich and turn to politicians that will equalize everything. There has been a huge transfer of wealth to these areas and they still decline. These progressive policies are well intentioned but have not helped.

It really comes down to values and morals. If you don't have them then your society will decline and before you militant atheists pop a blood vessel I'm not talking about any particular religion I'm just talking about right and wrong.

So what are the solutions? More abortions for these folks? Maybe police officers on every corner with assault rifles? Maybe we can just all donate a bunch of money to these areas and let the local politicians hammer it out?

These stories suck. It drives me crazy to think that you can't send a kid to school without him getting attacked like these kids have but the solution has to be from within these communities because without them any external help will fail.

[Skud]

Good points Nomadicus and Duke. Yes, as I kind of mentioned, not worded as well in mine, it really does fall mostly on the parents. And as some of you suggested, the father in the majority of these cases is not around. This is often because they either get the woman (I won't use the word that I often hear them called by these tough guys) pregnant and leave, knowing that she won't turn him in for not paying support. Or, he is not around because he gets himself put into prison for, guess what, violent crime or drug charges.

And to go along with the government support idea...the teen pregnancy rate was at record levels last year in the US. Single teen parents who don't graduate school are not too likely to instill a set of high values on education, authority, etc...because they haven't fully learned them yet, or they've learned a twisted set (ie., how to get by [through aid], not how to get ahead). Then, with the media and the government saying that it's society's fault that they cannot get ahead, they help to enable/solidify a learned sense of helplessness/victimhood that is taught, if it hasn't already been, to these parents who then teach their children. I wish, as Furry suggested, more of them pushed their kids to do well in school because it is their only way out...but from my experience this is the exception and not the norm: thus more than 50% drop out of school. A crisis that we still haven't felt the full effect of.

Also, the police are doing what they can in these neighborhoods...it's not like they just ignore the crimes because of the area. Every night on my routes I drive through one of the worst areas in Madison (no it's not Chicago [though much of the problem has migrated from there]) and I see a number of squads as I pass through, parked, patrolling, etc. The presence is there and it is a direct result of the behavior in the area...I can't recall how many times the area was shut down, routes were detoured, because of a shooting or other violent incident. Unfortunately, it is often the case that the kids are taught to hate the police, as they are taught that the teacher (or the bus driver, lol) disciplines them because of their skin color, not because of their actions (the same actions for which members of any race are disciplined...in fact I am more likely to discipline someone of my own race because with them I do not have to worry that they will say it is because of race, they will understand that it is simply a result of breaking the posted rules). Taught that the system is responsible for their misery, not their absent father. That is what they believe, so they live their lives fighting/manipulating the system...until, some, perhaps learn what it takes to live a decent life...but then, with the criminal record, it is usually too late. The cycle continues.

Well, that is a bit of what I see on the streets. As I said earlier, I could write chapters on it. And, no, my examples don't cover all...but they do, I feel, cover too many. It is sad that there are third-world areas in our own country...that violence is acceptable there...that there are places where we cannot go without fear of being beaten, shot, robbed. Truly sickening.

[mapes]

I take it a step further and look at what our welfare system does. It pays for single moms, for the health and well being of their fatherless child. The unintended consequence is that the father of the child takes off knowing the system will take care of his child. The father doesn't care about child support or what can happen legally. Thus, the first crime is committed teaching the child "this is how it is supposed to be." This happens in far to many cases.




While I agree with you that this is the crux of the problem. If you really believe wayward fathers leave the families because they think the welfare system will take care of their offspring and that makes it ok and or gives them justification... Well thats the silliest thing I've ever heard. The fathers leave cause they suck and can't take responsibility. Even before welfare this was happening. By far teen pregnancy is a huge contributor to this and needs to be curbed.

[Duke{CLR}]

While I agree with you that this is the crux of the problem. If you really believe wayward fathers leave the families because they think the welfare system will take care of their offspring and that makes it ok and or gives them justification... Well thats the silliest thing I've ever heard. The fathers leave cause they suck and can't take responsibility. Even before welfare this was happening. By far teen pregnancy is a huge contributor to this and needs to be curbed.

There is nothing silly about it. The fact is that if they think the kids will be taken care of then it makes it that much easier. it gicves them a lame excuse. I'm not going to google search anything now but there was a speech from some black guy that was talking about how welfare replaced the black father and destroyed the family structure. It may have been Bill Cosby. :scratch:

[mapes]

There is nothing silly about it. The fact is that if they think the kids will be taken care of then it makes it that much easier. it gicves them a lame excuse. I'm not going to google search anything now but there was a speech from some black guy that was talking about how welfare replaced the black father and destroyed the family structure. It may have been Bill Cosby. :scratch:

Welfare didn't replace the black father....your right though it left him with a lame excuse and thats it.

[Duke{CLR}]

Welfare didn't replace the black father....your right though it left him with a lame excuse and thats it.

Not physically maybe but when we were paying for the number of children a welfare mother had then it was kind of replacing him. This was discussed a lot when the republicans led congress forced Clinton to do welfare reform in the mid 90s to try and fix this problem. I'm guessing that you are trying to defend the welfare programs and that's why you are arguing over the father part. So I will just say again that the trillions of dollars spent on theses communities has done nothing to stop the poverty. The solution needs to come from within.

[Duke{CLR}]

While looking for the particular quote I ran across this.

http://www.askablackfather.com/personal/personal6.html

I pulled the last paragraph from it because it mentions welfare and how it destroys families. It is a good read and I would suggest reading the whole thing.


You will notice that during this entire discussion. I avoided suggesting any form of welfare. At no time did I mention or state that you should go to the Department of Social Services and take what the system will give you. The reason is simple. It's sometimes very difficult to get on public assistance. More, once you get one public assistance it's even harder to get off. All possible efforts should be made not to get on Public Assistance or Welfare. In my opinion, has been and continues to be a scourge to the system and the families who are left on it. A food program, yes. Assistance with education, sure. Assistance with children's health, absolutely. But anything further should be resisted. Welfare destroys families and fosters secular dependency on the Social Services System. Single Parent Homes don't foster children who find or are prone to trouble. It's a myth. There are enough stereotypes abound concerning Single Parent Homes. I have no desire to add to them. The success of any home is incumbent on the effort of the parent or parents governing that home. It can be accomplished. All Things Are Possible With Faith.

[Hammy]

The reality is that this does not happen in wealthy neighborhoods because the people there wouldn't stand for it. They would take action and get things done that's why it is a nice neighborhood.

Pretty much sums up much about social and economic elements in the lives of people.

You either have a disposition of action or you dont. Those that do, they tend to have better lives than those who don't.

There is nothing in between regarding economical standards in my opinion. Money and income brackets have nothing to do with it, money and income are the BY PRODUCT of good best practices such as good inter-social skills, staying educated, executing on the better benefit of life, and etc.

Those neighborhoods where this is happening, you have a giant "not-my-bidness -so-it-not-my-problem" problen going on. You want cleaner, safer, and etc? then clean it up. Criminals dont fear the police, they fear the mob.

[mapes]

I'm guessing that you are trying to defend the welfare programs and that's why you are arguing over the father part. So I will just say again that the trillions of dollars spent on theses communities has done nothing to stop the poverty. The solution needs to come from within.

I'm not defending the programs. I'm just stating that blaming the fact that a father left his children on welfare seems a bit convoluted.

I generally think just giving people money is bad. However I'd like to see more programs trying to gve disadvantaged youth better role models Before they go down the wrong path and perpetuate the cycle yet another time.

[Duke{CLR}]

However I'd like to see more programs trying to gve disadvantaged youth better role models Before they go down the wrong path and perpetuate the cycle yet another time.

Do you mean like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac?

[mapes]

Do you mean like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac?



Uhhh no I'm talking like

Boy's and Girls Club
Mentor Programs
Junior Achievers
Scholarships
Vocational Training
Big Brother/Sister

[Duke{CLR}]

Uhhh no I'm talking like

Boy's and Girls Club
Mentor Programs
Junior Achievers
Scholarships
Vocational Training
Big Brother/Sister

I don't have a problem with these programs because none of them pay people to have kids to get a bigger check from uncle Sam. :2thumbs: