SLI vs Single Card

[darth_nevus]

I have been presented by an intriguin thought by my wife who has ABSOLUTELY no computer tech knowhow, but sometimes out of the box thinking makes more sense. and in this case it made me think hard. heres the situation if you can follow my thought process bearing in mind a budget:

Options are:

2 7900gs cards for 199.99 and a full 32x SLI Core 2 Mobo for $239

1 7950gx2 for $534 and a 16x Core 2 mobo for $100

I realize the 2 7900gs combo will be more powerful. But, i do not plan on having money to buy a monitor capable of displaying past 1280x1024 for a while yet. At this point it makes me realize that the human eye cannot tell the difference between 142fps and 136fps.

On the other side of the table, having only 1 video card will provide me with the ability to later on upgrde to 2 7950gx2's if necessary, capable of pressing me to be able to have a more "futureproof" system for a while. with a new mobo of course.

Another thing I bear in mind is the inevitable release of windows vista and DX10 video cards, making current tech useless eventually. but then again, so is the way of the computer. as well the new G80 cores will be out in the near future as well.

I am curious too see all your thoughts, ideas, etc on this my well informed collegues.

[juneau]

One uber fast card all the way. As you said, SLI is for really high resolutions.

1 7950gx2 will be enough for sometime to come, and when it does start to show it's age 7950gx2's will be costing a bomb and be hard to find. With cheaper, faster, next gen alternatives available. This is mainly why i'm not a fan of SLI/Crossfire (unless of course you have the money to keep on buying two cards at once everytime a new gen comes out).

If you feel that your going to upgrade to Vista soon after it's release it maybe worth just buying 1 cheap card for now, say the 7900GS as you mentioned. If you think it'll be a year or so after Vista's release that you make the jump, go ahead and treat yourself with a nice, shiney new 7950gx2. :D

[WalkinTarget]

juneau, GMTA (Great Minds Think Alike) ... good advice and just what I was going to post. It all comes down to your upgrade path to Vista. I would suggest the single budget card if Vista and DX10 are in your near future (as in mid-spring '07. Seeing as how we won't see any DX10 games that are significantly better than their DX9 counterparts, an upgrade just to enjoy DX10 is wasted effort.

If anyone's looked over the improvements in DX10, they will be surprised to see that it adds very little in actual terms of visual geometry, rather it just speeds up existing DX9 calls, similar to what SM2 (shader model) was to SM3 in newer video cards. Remember that DX9 has been with us for 5+ years now, so thinking of DX10 before its even out isn't beneficial to a gamer.

Juneau covered all the angles, so I will conclude in saying that SLI still isn't quite the easiest of setups to run full throttle (car guys analogy here: remember the original GTO 389 tri-power setup .. it wasn't easy to keep those three two barrels tuned properly).

[rafles]

Well guys you really know and thanks for the advise i'll consider it when thinking my next computer (hopefully will be around 9 month form now).

I notice darth says "a full 32x SLI Core 2 Mobo" i guess this is the system (not sure if procesor or motherboard, correct me if i'm wrong) but i asume you are thinking in a 32 bits system, my point is what about x64 system they really run a lot faster (true multitask).

I have a x64 dual core with windows xp x64 and my computer feels really good i know x64 is really anoying for software compatibilty but i can run design software and BF2 & BF2142 that's all i need! so what do you guys think about the x64 systems? i'm really happy with mine.

regading vista i read in a forum that is a big resource monster that it uses about 800mb of ram just to run!! but i'm not sure if that is true :?

[WalkinTarget]

rafles, Vista is getting a lot better ... remember we are talking BETA software here !! The beta2 was a pig at around 700+ megs usage, but RC1 has dropped that down to a reasonable 450+. Ohh, did I mention it is still BETA ??? Don't forget that fact ... and I'm not trying to sell anybody the OS, but I think its worth a look considering the software is free until July, 2007.

[darth_nevus]

Well guys you really know and thanks for the advise i'll consider it when thinking my next computer (hopefully will be around 9 month form now).

I notice darth says "a full 32x SLI Core 2 Mobo" i guess this is the system (not sure if procesor or motherboard, correct me if i'm wrong) but i asume you are thinking in a 32 bits system, my point is what about x64 system they really run a lot faster (true multitask).

I have a x64 dual core with windows xp x64 and my computer feels really good i know x64 is really anoying for software compatibilty but i can run design software and BF2 & BF2142 that's all i need! so what do you guys think about the x64 systems? i'm really happy with mine.

regading vista i read in a forum that is a big resource monster that it uses about 800mb of ram just to run!! but i'm not sure if that is true :?

I was referring to the mother board being 32 true lanes for the pcie bus, as opposed to some of the other boards that are 16x with one card, but 8x by 8x with 2, or the even worse ones that do 16x and 4x. as far as x64, for compatibility reasons, i won't go there.

and the version of vista you are referring to is one of the earlier versions. while its not going to drop much by the time it retails, my guess would be around 600 w/ aeroglass, and 500 without.

Time will tell.

The reason i am concerned about dx10 cards is while there are few changes to the program, one of the biggest is no more backwards compatability, as all the dx10 games will NOT run on the current dx9 cards.

[darth_nevus]

rafles, Vista is getting a lot better ... remember we are talking BETA software here !! The beta2 was a pig at around 700+ megs usage, but RC1 has dropped that down to a reasonable 450+. Ohh, did I mention it is still BETA ??? Don't forget that fact ... and I'm not trying to sell anybody the OS, but I think its worth a look considering the software is free until July, 2007.

Really? the beta version? or full version? i know the big cheese was saying they were going to be shipping OEM models to pc makers starting mid december, and retail in march, but does this mean there will be a free version until then?

[rafles]

Well thanks for the info, i guess i need to update my info :oops: i think i will be happy with x64 for a while (i know, vista i coming out in x64 too) but i rather use the un-attended versions of it like BioWindows.

You guys seem to know a lot of this, can you tellme what upgrades vista have besides the look?

Thanks! :2thumbs:

[ChrisWW11]

If you can try to get quad sli lol jk
I have two 7950's and they run fine excpet there not Dx10 compatible. go for the 1 7950 u won't need to upgrade for quite some time!! :wink: :wink:

[WalkinTarget]

one of the biggest is no more backwards compatability, as all the dx10 games will NOT run on the current dx9 cards.

Darth, early games offering DX10 (ie: games released for the next 1.5 years minimum) will offer a dual DX path so that end users are not left out. Its the same setup as it was when DX9 was coming out and superceding DX8. I'd be just a bit surprised to not see this occur just like it did the last go-round.

rafles, there is a lot of security core changes built into Vista, foremost is the UAC model which is detailed here:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/windowsvista/prodinfo/what/security/default.aspx

What this basically does is treat each account as a power account, so that even logged in as a true 'admin' level account, you will occasionally be prompted to perform tasks that hefetofore would execute in the background. Sounds annoying ?? Well, think of all the spyware that gets installed silently via the browser these days and you soon realize why these popup notices are now a good thing. Only downside is the end user still has to read the prompt and question its authenticity. Too many users just click OK rathr than be bothered by a system check. Its up to the end user to manage their modifying security level.

I personally like the Windows Live Anywhere built into Vista, which allows Vista gamers to log into Live and play against console guys, using a similar messenger program to track who's playing what. There's too much to list within the context of this post, so I'll leave it up to you to decide how interested you are.

Ohh, and Darth ... Vista betas are free to use a full six months after the release of the gold OS to retailers, so if it holds to its January 30 release, then all of the betas will expire on July 1, 2007.

[juneau]

Crysis is DX9 compatable isn't it?

[Gremlin_flg]

First of all honestly I think SLI is a joke and a waste of money. It just helps you to get a few extra fps in the game.

It all depends on what you want to do . What is your current video card? Reason for upgrade? Can you wait for a video card upgrade?

Are you going to buy Vista next year? Are you going to be buying the game from Crytek? If so, buy a DX10 card coming out next year. If you card is cheesy now and youdo not like it, buy a used 6800 or one 7900 GS. Do not waste money on a 7950 card if you are going to buy a DX10.

Instead of buying two video cards, you yourself said in your post you do not have an monitor to do 1280 resolution. Save up for an LCD either a 21inch or 24 inch. If you are going for a 24 inch one than go for this Benq Brand (http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=3425). Benq should run you about $800 USD. I have the 24 inch Dell 2405. Telling you now, once you have a 24 LCD you will not go back to a CRT.

So hope that helps you out.

[WalkinTarget]

Crysis in in fact DX9 compatible.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/crysis/news.html?sid=6156499

Snipped:
The Crytek employee demonstrating the game had a god mode turned on and so, because he was invincible, he spent most of his time running and gunning like a madman (to show off how impressively destructive the whole environment is), rather than giving any thought to his visibility and audibility as you would if you were attempting to sneak up on enemies. Trees fell to the ground convincingly and vehicles on which every component sustained damage individually became fireballs shortly after their fuel tanks were hit.

As impressive as the destruction was, it looked very ordinary compared to what we got to see next: a simulation of what Crytek hopes Crysis will look like when played using DirectX 10. To try to describe just how impressive the simulation looked with mere words seems a futile gesture, but know that everything had realistic physics (this was especially noticeable in the leaves of palm trees when they were toppled), that the resulting smoke and dust particles in the air shifted with gusts of wind, and that the shafts of light coming down through the jungle canopy showed off these effects quite beautifully. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to say that comparing the DX9 and DX10 (simulated) versions would be akin to comparing Xbox and Xbox 360 versions of the same game; the simulation really looked that good.

[ChrisWW11]

Crysis is DX9 compatable isn't it?
yea it is but understand not everyone is going to have D10...like me cause i'm not going to be wasting money in a long time. :cry: :cry: :cry:

[darth_nevus]

First of all honestly I think SLI is a joke and a waste of money. It just helps you to get a few extra fps in the game.

It all depends on what you want to do . What is your current video card? Reason for upgrade? Can you wait for a video card upgrade?

Are you going to buy Vista next year? Are you going to be buying the game from Crytek? If so, buy a DX10 card coming out next year. If you card is cheesy now and youdo not like it, buy a used 6800 or one 7900 GS. Do not waste money on a 7950 card if you are going to buy a DX10.

Instead of buying two video cards, you yourself said in your post you do not have an monitor to do 1280 resolution. Save up for an LCD either a 21inch or 24 inch. If you are going for a 24 inch one than go for this Benq Brand (http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=3425). Benq should run you about $800 USD. I have the 24 inch Dell 2405. Telling you now, once you have a 24 LCD you will not go back to a CRT.

So hope that helps you out.

My current video card/system is no slouch, but its on a dead end system. i currently have a bfg 6800gs oc craked past even the stock oc levels. BUT, its agp. here in lies my problem. my system is currently running an amd 64 3000+ socket 754. its 2 years old. and i am done fighting with it.

My upgrade path is VERY limited at this point due to chipset limitations, and the board i have is junk. i recently purchased the video card and 2gb of ram for it, but i am not happy with its performace.

with the recent price drops in most of the major components for a new system, the array of new knowledge i have, i have decided to move on to a new system, as such, what i am looking at is getting a new e6600 because of the price drop to 325. one thing i have learned moreover is not to "skimp" on parts. when i bought my current rig, the only processors better was the 3200+. the new 939 chipsets weren't out, and i shelled out 900 for ram, board, and processor. i wound up due to lack of thought on my part purchasing a fx5200gs instead of a decent video card, and wound up suffering because of it. this time i aim to do it right.

as far as vista, i am still quite undecided. i have yet to try the beta, and don't know wether i want to just yet. i am weighing heavily on the dx10 as whatever i buy i want to make sure will last me at least 2 years this time. walkintarget makes a great point, one i didn't think of, which is the roughly 2 year phase out of dx9.

monitors are still a long way off for me. the 17" lcd i currently have has done me wonders, and while its a cheapo wallyworld KDS, i have yet to see anything i deemed to be clearer, regardless of price, until you hit the 1000+ range.

all in all, good points though. this is the kind of controversy i need to determine my course of action.

As it stands, i really have 2 options as far as i see.
the first is buy the 775dual-vsta ASROCK board, and just swap the video card and ram, then upgrade as i go, or just do a nice clean fresh construction of a new system, one i won't have to worry about tinkering with for a few years. my budget is varying from $1000 to $1500 atm.

The biggest thing holding me back right now is ram prices. ever since rambus screwed everything up, prices have gone sky high. the 2gb ram i bought 6 months ago for 144 is now 229. the ddr2 800 ram i was GOING to buy until the core 2 procs came out at astronomical prices, was 145, and is now a nice cozy 290. i hope they come down a bit, but its looking like they aren't for a bit.

before anyone jumps the gun regarding amd going to 65nm, let me say first and foremost, i've always been an amd guy, but NOTHING they do will compete with a conroe for at least 12 months that we'll be able to buy. i don't feel like waiting 12 months for a new computer, as my current one is not only starting to show signs of wear, pissing me off, but its also at the very upper end of its capabilities and its starting to struggle a bit. bf2142 really made me realize that.

for the future, i do not know what games i will be playing, but end result is i want to not only be able to play them, but enjoy them. playing bf2 on a insanely overclocked fx5200 just sucked. i am not going through that again.

[juneau]

I have a question, bit off topic, but which 4 people are overclocking their typewriters? :D

[imlittlev]

erm, maybe not ,maybe me. OC'ed to 250 Chz (clickahertz

[darth_nevus]

i did because i am undecided 8)

[WalkinTarget]

Here's what a lil digging turned up:

Budget Conroe build

Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 - Zipzoomfly - 339.00
Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3 - Zipzoomfly - 153.99
XFX e-Geforce 7900 GT KO 256MB - NE- 228 (After Rebates)
NEC 3550 with 512MB pen drive - NE - 29.99
Enermax or CoolerMaster Case - Newegg.com - 51.99 (Includes Shipping)
Rosewill single 12V rail 26A 550W - NE- 39.99
OCZ OCZ2G8002GK 2GB Kit DDR2-800 - Outpost- 120 (After Rebate)
TT Big Typhoon - Zipzoomfly - 49.99

Total $1,009

HD excluded, s I assume you can carry them over to the new build. Keep in mind that revised P965 chipsets come out in late September which should bump performance/OC'ing by a smidge.

[Gremlin_flg]

Walking target get the evga 7900 GT I am serious they are better company than XFX.

Darth good point. I would start from a fresh system built. Buy a decent card that will handle both the bf's and than go the dx10 card.

[Quamin]

Honestly, I'm thinking about just waiting for the dx10 cards and using my money from my rma'd card to get my motorcycle. Sure I'll have an expensive computer sitting here for a bit but you have to think is that $500 investment worth the $100 a month till the new stuff comes out? Why get two cards if you aren't going to run a super-high resolution that most people can't use without expensive monitors? I am probably going to wait and just play bf2/2142 on this here laptop that for some reason runs better than my friggin $1700 pc...

[darth_nevus]

Here's what a lil digging turned up:

Budget Conroe build

Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 - Zipzoomfly - 339.00
Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3 - Zipzoomfly - 153.99
XFX e-Geforce 7900 GT KO 256MB - NE- 228 (After Rebates)
NEC 3550 with 512MB pen drive - NE - 29.99
Enermax or CoolerMaster Case - Newegg.com - 51.99 (Includes Shipping)
Rosewill single 12V rail 26A 550W - NE- 39.99
OCZ OCZ2G8002GK 2GB Kit DDR2-800 - Outpost- 120 (After Rebate)
TT Big Typhoon - Zipzoomfly - 49.99

Total $1,009

HD excluded, s I assume you can carry them over to the new build. Keep in mind that revised P965 chipsets come out in late September which should bump performance/OC'ing by a smidge.

I love the list with a few exceptions. the gigabyte ds3 board will not take the OCZ ram, or so everyone so far i have run accross has to say. i also cannot find said ram you are reffering to.

Gremlin, the evga version of the 7900gt ko is no longer available due to high failure rates, but i think a superclocked version is available as they finally figured what the modding community was reffering to about the 7900gt cards running with too little voltage on the core. :)

the cooler i'd change to, i have developed an affinity for the scythe infinity. anything that can have 4 120mm fans strapped to it would be awesome.

hd and a version of windows would need to be added unless i decide to go with windows vista beta. hd would need to definately need to be there as the current 480gb of storage i have is almost full.

last but not least, i need the faster ram for a reason. i am going to oc the crap out of this core. the ds3 or a newer asus board would be great for this, but as it stands, no asus boards have out of the box conroe support. that i've found for under 200.

good point quamin, keep the ideas coming.

[WalkinTarget]

Wow ... I was unaware of the OCZ's problems with the Gigabyte board. DoH !

Well, if you want maximum OC, then might I suggest ...

BIOSTAR !!!

Haha, now that you are done laughing, I read earlier this week that the guys at HardOCP got this board up to 501 fsb !!!!


*snipped*
We headed down to Fry?s last week and picked up two more E6300 processors to do some more overclocking with since our one sample was out with another motherboard editor. Now the kicker here being that we are using a fledgling Biostar motherboard, the TForce P965 Deluxe. Yes, I did type that correctly, we are using a Biostar motherboard for overclocking. Biostar sold a small run of these boards into the US that quickly sold out but is promising more by the end of the month. We were able to obtain a huge 501MHz front side bus with the TForce P965 that was solid as a rock with a little extra northbridge cooling. This awarded us a 3.512GHz clock speed from our lowly 1.87GHz stock rating.

link to thread - http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1029931716&postcount=468

link to board website -
http://www.biostar.com.tw/t-series/products/socket%20775/tforce_P965_Deluxe/product_details.php

[Gremlin_flg]

EVGA fixed the problems with the 7900gt by replacing the mrmory chips. And the drawback was you can OC it good enough as before. Not heard of any problems with the upgraded chips except for not OCing.

[darth_nevus]

EVGA fixed the problems with the 7900gt by replacing the mrmory chips. And the drawback was you can OC it good enough as before. Not heard of any problems with the upgraded chips except for not OCing.

Memory chips were one fault, but thats what they get for using inferior chips. but...

Evga's problem, as well as everyone elses for the 7900gt series wasn't so much the chips as it is the voltage. the clock speeds they were pushing needed more voltage. thats why there is so little overclocking capability. a majority of the communities all agree on this, especially since its so easy to volt mod this card. all it requires is a conductive ink pen. a great deal of these same folks swear their volt modded cards actually run cooler than the stock version.

albeit i don't recommend doing it yourself, as it voids warrenties, but it seems very odd to me that someone increasing voltage to the core by .1v is able to increase the core frequency by 120+mhz, and still be able to keep the same temps. a few got 60+ with just the stock cooler.

Between that and the fact that the fans were not variable speed on most 7900gt's contributed to a very high failure rate with these cards.

You'll notice that the new 7950gt has passivly cooled brothers from xfx, albeit they run HOT, 90+ degrees under load, with much higher clock rates than stock and 7900gt's. i would not be surprised at all if they listened to the modding community, and upped the core voltage a tad. looking at the back of the 7950gt reveals alot more components, especially in the section you would need to alter to up the voltage.

the high failure rate makes evga and bfg look like really good companies because of their return policies. these are the companies i was looking at for a card.

[darth_nevus]

Haha, now that you are done laughing, I read earlier this week that the guys at HardOCP got this board up to 501 fsb !!!!


Now i am curious as to know what memory divider, and memory timings they had to push to reach that...

latency, when not as bad with core 2 chips, has to be insanely high.

fyi, the asus board's new bios goes up to 650 fsb. lol.

[WalkinTarget]

meh .. I admit to being a big EVGA fan (I own 3 EVGA cards), but I wouldn't kill my budget unless I really had to for Darth's particular build. Tell ya what .. I do like that rig for that price !!

:2thumbs:

Whatever happens, I'm hoping he is satisfied with the overall rig. I obviously tried to stay as far down the budget ladder as possible (I wouldn't normally recommend Rosewill PSUs) but for the money, its not a bad start. I just love putting it all together from a parts list then actually assembling it.

Edit to answer Darths fsb question: I'd guess 5-5-5-5 from reading other posts on the DDR2 RAM that was being tested by other users. That's quite sloppy, but apparently the Conroe's core architecture is not noticeably bothered by the higher latency timings. Truthfully, AMD isn't moving to DDR2 to get huge performance gains at this point, they are just progressing to DDR2 to follow Intel's roadmap.

[Grisu]

In my opinion SLI/CF is a waste of money.

[Gremlin_flg]

Same here. I agree with Grisu. SLI and crossfire is waste of money

[juneau]

Same here. I agree with Grisu. SLI and crossfire is waste of money

+1

Grisu is a very wise dragon :D