Flat screen TV help needed

[BigTwinky]

So... my 27" 15 year old TV is finally starting to crap out on me, so I am in the market for a new TV.

I have to be honest, I have never really paid too much attention to recent TV technology, so I'm kinda being forced to learn quickly.

I need some advice from those of you more in the know. We aren't planning on having a Cain style home theatre, so we are looking mainly just for the TV. Aiming at between 40-49".

There are so many makes and models that it kinda gets confusing. My brother bought one a few years ago and it was on the cheap side. When I watch a non HD hockey game at his house, the players have a ghosted image which I totally hate, so this is something I would want to avoid.

I believe this is where the Refresh Rate comes into play. Is 60hz enough? or should I aim for the 120hz?

What is the difference between Refresh Rate and Response time?

1080p is what i'm aiming for. Even though I read that if you are sitting within 10 feet of you Tv, you won't notice a huge difference between 1080 and 720.

So any tips, hints, brands to avoid, brands to look into?

Thanks!

[BigTwinky]

Forgot to add my budget, which will obviously make a difference.

I'm not looking for a high end, top of the line thing. I have a $500 certificate from a local store, so I'm willing to match that and then some. So say around $1300 or so as a budget.

[Rand{CLR}]

You won't find Sony in that size and price range unless you hit a good sale. Failing that, Sharp and Samsung are excellent brands, so I would target one of them. Definitely get 1080p, go for as many HDMI inputs on the TV as you can get, and don't worry overmuch about refresh rate: it's not as important as advertised.

You MAY notice some slight differences in sporting events, but that'll be it. It's sort of like contrast ratio--once you pass a certain point, you're fine, but the companies try to use it as bragging rights.

Oh, LCD over plasma. Even the newer Plasmas experience burn-in to some degree (very bad if you game, almost as bad if you watch certain channels often--their logo will eventually burn in permanently), and all Plasmas begin to fade after a couple of years as the gases lose potency.

In almost all cases, buying store-hawked extended warranties is a scam. Save that money toward a better tv, a wall-mount bracket, or a tv stand.

-Rand

[Trooper110]

Refresh rate and response time, are unfortunately, in a lot of cases dependent upon the manufacturer. It's not a set measurement, so it's really hard to compare between manufacturers, but smaller is typically better. As far as 60Hz to 120Hz, the big differences are color saturation. You're going to get a more vibrant, "living", color from a 120Hz TV than a 60Hz, but honestly, unless you place them side by side you won't notice a difference. My brother is the warehouse manager for the local Circuit City, so I get to hear bout this stuff, and right now the best TVs are from Samsung or Sony. Personally, I like the LCD TV's better since you have a wider viewing angle and a longer lifetime to look forward to. On the other hand, a plasma is going to give you better/truer blacks and gray shades. LCD you also don't have to worry as much about sun glare, depending on where you put it, since they don't have the glass fronting like a plasma or the older CRTs would.

My dad just bought a series 6, 630 Samsung LCD when my parents moved: Buy the Samsung 46 Plasma TVs at circuitcity.com (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Samsung-46-Series-6-LCD-HDTV-LN46A650/sem/rpsm/oid/206154/catOid/-12867/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do) Looks great, and 1080p resolution. My brother has an older 720p plasma Samsung, that still looks really nice, and since HD broadcasts only go up to 720p, you don't notice the difference while watching TV. If you use Blue-Ray, have a PS3 or Xbox360, or anything else that will output in 1080p, then you're going to see it though.

The problem you described when you watch non-HD channels you're going to get any time you watch. These TVs are configured and set to display video in HD, and honestly a non HD-TV is going to give you a better picture on non HD-stations. If you have a TV with HD capability, you want to be getting the max stations in HD that you can so you don't have to worry about the ugly bluriness or ghosting that comes otherwise.

And for references:
Link to the Samsung TVs at Circuit City: Televisions at Circuit City (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Televisions/sem/rpsm/c/1/catOid/-12867/N/20012866+20012867+40001426/link/ref/rpem/ccd/categorylist.do)
Link to Sony TVs at Circuit City: Televisions at Circuit City (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Televisions/sem/rpsm/c/1/catOid/-12867/N/20012866+20012867+40000229/link/ref/rpem/ccd/categorylist.do)

[BigTwinky]

So there is nothing really I can do to avoid that image ghosting other than get the HD channels? Whether is a 720p, 1080p, 60hz or 120hz, I should pretty much get that ghosting image going on.

Thanks for the tips guys.

[Zantheus]

My personal favourite is the 42" Sharp Aquos LCD

[Duke{CLR}]

I don't own a flat screen and I know,little about them but I do have lots of friends that are replacing the ones they bought 4 to 5 years ago. Now they dropped a lot of $ on these things and they only lasted a few years? This has got me thinking that the least expensive one that looks good and is a good brand is what I will be going for. I will be interested to see how it turns out BT so be sure to update us. :2thumbs:

[Trooper110]

Duke, as with computer parts, you get what you pay for. With cheaper models you may have a picture that looks the same, but will break down faster. Or it might look the same until you get to a dark part in a movie and all of a sudden you're seeing a large dark mass, or a bad grayscale, which is typically where you see the issues occur, just like with computer monitors. And chances are you'll notice it more on a TV screen than a monitor, as you usually have a lot more moving and darker scenes, depending on what you use the computer for and what you watch.

4 to 5 years is the typical life span for a plasma TV. The gasses that they use lose potency as Rand said, as well as slowly leaking out of TV. A LCD has the potential to get dead pixels, but also tends to last longer because unless they all go dead in one spot or possibly dead center, you're not as liable to notice them. Of course, like I said above, you don't get quite the same blacks and grayscales with a LCD as you do with a plasma.

The better brands will typically last longer and have better picture over there life. Whether this is due to better construction, materials, electronics, etc. I'm not sure, probably a combination of everything.

I can tell you from personal experience of mine from working at Circuit City as well as my brother's that the "budget" models and lower end models, especially in TVs, were the ones that would come back the most for failure to operate or a quick death.

[Apache Warrior]

I have been real happy with Samsung.

[Hammy]

BT- I am getting my comission check in the next 6 weeks so I am doing the same thing you are doing (actually since August I have been shopping this topic). Despite my income, I am in sales, so the need to be a miser with costs comes with the territory. I am a bargain hunter and I am not easily parted with my money, so my budget is actually $1,000 with a stretch limit of $1,200 that includes all fees and taxes.

As several have said, Samsung is not only leading in happiness by consumer, but if you look at defects for LCDs at 30" and above (cant remember the start number) Sony is doing miserably.

Longevity wise, too early to say with all these tech changes. Plasma seems to be the cheapest flat panel out there, with my friend getting a Samsung 720p Plasma for $799 with 3 HDMI.

Factors to consider in LCDs not Plasma:

Contrast Ratio
Room size
HDMI outputs (you can never have too many but if you only have a definite need for 2 then the extra two will cost you at least $200 a pop in price comparison)
Screen Refresh Rate (the 120Hz is just godly and Blu-Ray looks almost 3 dimensional)


Personally, I dont go below 50,000:1 when I am looking at the LCDs. I saw one just 3 days ago that had 1,000,000:1 and it was just golden to look at (though the price was over 3k)

I also wanted but will not buy a 120hz. The reason is power consumption and the fact I dont want to see the pits in the faces of actors on the screen.

HDMIs- The one that I have picked out has 3-4 depending on which Contrast Ratio it has.

One thing I looked at yesterday was Overstock.com I have bought refurbished electronic equipment the last three major purchases and the units functioned so well that friends or family bought them and still use them today- without failures. There is a report out there that says electronics fail quite more often than we think, but the failure rate on a refurb is about or less than 2%. I may keep my eye on Overstock, as I know a few people that have gotten WAY more than what they paid for this way. The key for them, when I asked, was patience and the willingness not to comprimise.

My friend Shelley waited nearly 10months for the right TV to come up there. Another pal was going between Ubid and Overstock, settled on one from Ubid, got outbid, went over to Overstock the next day, and the same unit he was outbid on was up there for about $300 less than what the final bid was and was in a new box (not refurbed like the one on Ubid).

I'll keep you up to date on what I find as I continue to shop this topic.

[Apache Warrior]

If you can check out Consumer Reports for their ratings in Flat Screen TV's.
Apache

[Skud]

On Newegg.com in the past. Not a bad site for selection and a little info.

[Trooper110]

HDTV blur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDTV_blur)

Check that article out for a little more information on the differences between 60Hz and 120Hz and why they have both.

[Rand{CLR}]

and since HD broadcasts only go up to 720p, you don't notice the difference while watching TV. If you use Blue-Ray, have a PS3 or Xbox360, or anything else that will output in 1080p, then you're going to see it though.

I don't know what barbaric cable company you use, but Comcast outputs HD in 1080i here in Maryland.

I've got a 32" Sharp Aquos that outputs in 1080p. You get more benefit from 1080p from larger screens, but it is essential because of Blu-Ray and other upcoming HD media.

Try to see whichever TVs you're looking at in a HIGH END ELECTRONICS STORE. We have two major ones in the States, Tweeter and Myer-Emco. The worst thing you can do is try to evaluate in a big-box retail store, because they crank the settings to be all wonky. You need to view the tvs in a niche store so you get more realistic settings. Then you can buy the one you want wherever the price is best.

-Rand

[BigTwinky]

Thanks again for the tips and links people. Mucho appreciated.

Rand, you are so correct when trying to evaluate TVs in a store. They crank up the brightness on most models, and there is so much light in those stores that it doesn't reflect what someone's living room usually looks like.

I prefer to do online research (and asking the good people here) and then just going after what I want in the cheapest store.

I found that the more specialised stores will often over price their merchandise. So if I can get the same thing for a few hundred cheaper, well, I'll do that. Although the service and advice you get at these specialty stores is way better than the big boxes

[MR_MADHATTER]

I got a Samsung 40" LCD, 1080P about a year ago. I love it.:luvu: $700 at Best Buy...I can't find that model now for less than $1200. Get a Bluray player too or HD on Cable or Satelite. Otherwise you are just wasteing money. An HDTV playing regular TV is like a Lamborgini in first gear.:|Look at refresh rate, viewing angle, and responce time. Right now may be the best time when stores are clearing the left-over xmas inventory.

Also after you get it home, run a calibration DVD and most models can get firmware updates over the internet. This is especially important for Bluray players. Some movies will not even play untill you have done an update. Found that out the hard way.

[mapes]

Depending on where you live you maybe able to stick it to the man and buy a HD antenna. Thats right local broadcasters also transmit HD over the air and an antenne is cheap

[MadDog]

Like MadHatter I've had a 40" samsund LCD for two years now and haven't had any issues. Didn't go to the full 1080p since the format war was still on and at that size 1080i and 1080p don't make much of a difference, unless your sitting closer than 4'. I don't know of any service providers satelite or cable that can provide 1080p right now anyway, so unless you plan on going blu-ray 720p or 1080i might be enough. My TV has a 60Hz refresh and just watched the world junior hockey championship in HD and never had any issue with ghosting, etc. Hope this helps and good luck.:D

[DougBob]

BT the important items to watch are:

Response time: no higher than 8ms, preferrably find a 5ms
Resolution: go with the 1080p, forget what people tell you about 720p to 1080p comparison.
Contrast: no less than 10,000:1, preferably you should go with no less than 15,000:1, you really don't have to find the high high numbers that's money.

These are your most important items to look for, now for brand, I purchased my Mom a Sharp Aquos 32" 1080p LCD last year for Xmas and it is a sweet little TV.
I have the Samsung LN-T5265F 52" 1080p LCD. I absolutely love it. It's 15,000:1, 8ms plenty of inputs for me and it rocks for playing games on PS3 and Xbox, Blue Rays, etc.
Now for LCD vs Plasma, I stayed away from Plasma but they do have excellent display. I recommend LCD. Drawbacks to Plasma are the possibility of burn in and the drawback to LCD is the possiblility of dead pixels. I don't have one, but I can live with a dead pixel :2thumbs:

Last rule of thumb, look at it while it's displaying HD in a store before you buy just to make sure.

[Hammy]

HDTV blur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDTV_blur)

Check that article out for a little more information on the differences between 60Hz and 120Hz and why they have both.

NICE FIND!!!!:2thumbs: Thanks Troop!


BT the important items to watch are:

Response time: no higher than 8ms, preferrably find a 5ms
Resolution: go with the 1080p, forget what people tell you about 720p to 1080p comparison.
Contrast: no less than 10,000:1, preferably you should go with no less than 15,000:1, you really don't have to find the high high numbers that's money.

These are your most important items to look for, now for brand, I purchased my Mom a Sharp Aquos 32" 1080p LCD last year for Xmas and it is a sweet little TV.
I have the Samsung LN-T5265F 52" 1080p LCD. I absolutely love it. It's 15,000:1, 8ms plenty of inputs for me and it rocks for playing games on PS3 and Xbox, Blue Rays, etc.
Now for LCD vs Plasma, I stayed away from Plasma but they do have excellent display. I recommend LCD. Drawbacks to Plasma are the possibility of burn in and the drawback to LCD is the possiblility of dead pixels. I don't have one, but I can live with a dead pixel :2thumbs:

Last rule of thumb, look at it while it's displaying HD in a store before you buy just to make sure.

The new Samsungs have burn prevention technology and timers that you can use if you are really that paranoid. My friend has his screen saver on his plasma set at 1 minute so that if he DVR pauses he due to phone or etc, he doesnt have to be paranoid.

HOWEVER- if you plan to game on a TV avoid Plasma. No matter what new technology they place in there, you will ruin the screen in a year.

Another point- Most PS3 games are format 720p, with a short representation at 1080p,1080i. Meaning, make sure that you have full support from 480 through 1080p. My old TV, now two years old, does not support 720p and it is a real dissappointment.

[juneau]

Never noticed this post before and i'm going to rock the boat a little. :D

I've viewed hundreds of ISF calibarated LCD and Plasma TV's over the years with the luck of having a friend that is a manager of my local Super-Fi store (The best Home Entertainment chain in the UK). So here's my little bit of info on the subject.

Manufacturers in order of best to worst with a little info.

Pioneer - Need i say more? The BEST, but also the most expensive

Sony/Panasonic - Great TV's at great prices even at the lower end of the scale. Apart from Pioneer, Sony and Panny have the next best motion handling, colour reproduction, and image clarity. Panasonic Plasmas are probably the best around when taking image quality and price into account.

Samsung - Middle of the road and a new buyer favourite. Probably due to their asthetic looks and consumer friendly prices. 80% of the time the build quality feels lacking and the image, even though a great step up from CRT, will not show the best of HD unless you buy one of their top tier sets. Overall LCD quality better than Plasma.

Sharp - A bit like Samsung. Don't expect too much and you won't be disapointed. Some ranges suffer from grey blacks and colour banding.

Philips - Out of all the TV's ive viewed these are the worst. Not because of their poor quality throughout, but the fact that you have to spend serious money to get a good quality picture. Their low to middle ranges are borderline pathetic.

Time to rock that boat a little more. Unlike most people who have posted so far i'm going to say don't get a Samsung. While this will be a good start in the world of HDTV's and will more than likely make you very happy, but there is better out there in the Sony and Panasonic ranges for similar money. Oh and this comes from somebody that owns a Samsung TV. :D

720p vs 1080p - This is a tough subject and i'm going tell it from my avid conusmer POV and not some white paper test sheet or online comparison. 1080p does make a difference over 720p. However for the most part it is a small one. Anything lower than 40" and 1080p pretty much has zero effect on image quality when sitting at a normal viewing distance. Even on my Sony KDL40W4000, 1080p is pretty much lost all it's extra detail when you're more than 3ft away from the TV. This is not due to the Sony's quality, far from it, but the screen size to viewing distance ratio. If i had my hand in all the manufacturers design decisions i wouldn't have even bothered introducing 1080p until probably 50"+ and on high end ranges only. The only reason why i went for the Sony 1080p was due to,

A. Amazing offer price which has now gone up by roughly ?300.
B. BE2. One of the best image processors around.
C. Great 24p playback.

I was looking at the Panasonic range, but the extra price at the time made me go for the Sony. However if they were at the same price, like they are now, it would have been a very hard decision to make.

LCD vs Plasma

If you're buying any plasma from the current ranges you're pretty much guaranteed not to suffer from any image burn. Unless you do something stupid like leave it running on static image for 12hrs or so. This is not to say that it still doesn't exist. However most current plasma's are only sensitive during their first 150-200hrs of usage where you have to take it easy with static images and high contrast levels. But after this you can even game on them for a couple of hours with no problems. The most you will get is image retention. This normally fades in a hour or two when watching something else. However i would probably still recommend LCD for gamers and HTPC users

Not going to mention the drawbacks of LCD as most people know them already. I just wanted to point out that plasma is no longer the 'worrying' option, and most of the time the better option if you're main uses will be viewing SD or HD video.

At the end of the day the best you can do is listen to a few peoples advice to get you started but make sure you view TV's in a proper showroom that are running dedicated feeds and are properly calibrated or as close as possible.

If you had to make a percentage of general usage, what would it be for?

SD
HD
Gaming

Juneau:flamer:Samsung owners.

:D

[DougBob]

Very good write-up Juneau :2thumbs:

[juneau]

One extra bit. Don't buy into the 100hz, 120hz nonsense. It's a gimmick that destroys the film like qualities of movies and makes everything feel like it's a cheap daytime TV show. My samsung uses 50hz and 60hz. SD motion is pretty good and HD 23.976fps material is above average. My Sony uses 24, 50 and 60. These are the only frequencies you need right now. Unless of course that Hollywood recognises the fact that a constant 23.976fps which is used as the standard isn't enough to capture completely smooth panning shots for playback via digital equipment. I doubt this will ever happen. :twisted:

Thanks DougBob. :D

[DougBob]

That is so true Juneau , one of the misconceptions on LCD is they require higher refresh rates like CRT to get better quality. The truth is in the ms response time for each pixel and how fast they switch which is what the ms measurement of time represents. If I remember correctly 1080p is a 24Hz refresh rate so a LCD supporting a 120Hz is way overkill for nothing.

[MR_MADHATTER]

Hey, while you are out there spending all your money, if you don't already have a good sound system, get one. Nothing improves a movie experiance like good sound.

I have a documentary DVD called "Trinity and Beyond-The Atomic Bomb Movie". Narrarated by William Shatner, it's the history of atomic and nuclear weapons. Contains declassified footage of dozens of test explosions. From a 100 ton pile of TNT (calibration blast) to 30 & 50 megaton thermonuclear devices. There is a warning on the front of the DVD case for "extreme low frequency dynamic range". When I crank up the sub woofer, you would swear the world was coming to an end. A very interesting film made all the more enjoyable with good sound. Go for at least 5.1 surround.

Am I right?

[MadDog]

Nice write up Juneau...The best advice I think is pick that the one that looks best to you.

Dougbob is correct to, don't buy into the whole 120MHz thing. Response time is ulitmately what refreshes the screen. No different than an LCD you'd buy for your PC and gaming faster refresh, less blurring or ghosting.

Good luck

[juneau]

Hey, while you are out there spending all your money, if you don't already have a good sound system, get one. Nothing improves a movie experiance like good sound.

I have a documentary DVD called "Trinity and Beyond-The Atomic Bomb Movie". Narrarated by William Shatner, it's the history of atomic and nuclear weapons. Contains declassified footage of dozens of test explosions. From a 100 ton pile of TNT (calibration blast) to 30 & 50 megaton thermonuclear devices. There is a warning on the front of the DVD case for "extreme low frequency dynamic range". When I crank up the sub woofer, you would swear the world was coming to an end. A very interesting film made all the more enjoyable with good sound. Go for at least 5.1 surround.

Am I right?

So true. The speakers on 95% of HDTV's are awful. :D

[Rand{CLR}]

Well, it also depends on the size of your room. I simply can't use a 5.1 system on the tv I watch most often because I sit about 12 feet away at the most--and essentially I'm against the wall--so I just don't have room for such a system.

My basement project will provide me with surround sound for the first time. Can't wait. :2thumbs:

-Rand

[DougBob]

Well, it also depends on the size of your room. I simply can't use a 5.1 system on the tv I watch most often because I sit about 12 feet away at the most--and essentially I'm against the wall--so I just don't have room for such a system.

My basement project will provide me with surround sound for the first time. Can't wait. :2thumbs:

-Rand

:2thumbs: It will make a world of difference.
My basement is so long and narrow I can't get the satellite speakers place just right, but it still sounds good. :)

[MR_MADHATTER]

Well, it also depends on the size of your room. I simply can't use a 5.1 system on the tv I watch most often because I sit about 12 feet away at the most--and essentially I'm against the wall--so I just don't have room for such a system.

My basement project will provide me with surround sound for the first time. Can't wait. :2thumbs:

-Rand

My apartment living room is only a little more than 12 ft. wide. My Lazyboy is only 6 1/2 ft. from the TV. I have bookcase speakers on the bookcases behind me and bookcase speakers on the bookcases on either side of the TV. The center channel is on the table behind the TV and the subwoofer is in the corner. The Sony amp has a microphone I can use to calibrate the speakers. I can add delay to the surround speakers to give the illusion of having them further away. It works great! The TV's speakers are disabled in menu.

[KurlonT]

Nice write up Juneau...The best advice I think is pick that the one that looks best to you.
Good luck
+1

I picked up a 42" 1080p Toshiba Regza at BB a few months back (couldn't pass up on the no finance for 3yrs) and been really pleased with the set (still have my Toshiba RP HDTV). While calibration has been a bit tricker compared to my front projector in terms of menu options for HDTV watching and PS3 gaming it's been great (uses nice upconverting features for 720p games to 1080p).

One thing to add about LCD's is check how each set changes w/ the viewing angle. If your seating arrangement means someone will be off center by a large degree the picture will start to lose contrast and overall quality...of course how quickly this happens varies by set.

BTW if you don't have room for a 5.1 setup then check out soundbars (http://www.consumersearch.com/sound-bars/best-sound-bars). While it won't compete w/ true 5.1 setup it can provide the next best thing (usually a 3.1 setup) at a fraction of the space plus it's a significant upgrade over built-in TV speakers. Some of the Yamaha soundbars can get up there in price but do a very goog job a simulating surround speakers. I've been looking at the Sony HT-CT100 for my living room since I don't need another 5.1 setup just something to enhance HDTV watching anf PS3 gaming.

[MR_MADHATTER]

Well what did you end up with Twink?

[juneau]

Well what did you end up with Twink?

:pics: